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A Theology of Pain and Suffering

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
A Theology of Pain and Suffering

Author and theologian Kelly M. Kapic joins Mark and Rex to discuss his book Embodied Hope: A Theological Medidation on Pain and Suffering.


Welcome to Jessup think I’m your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And on the show today, we’re so privileged to have Kelly M. Capek on the show. He’s an author, Professor of theological studies at covenant college on Lookout Mountain in Georgia.

And I hope you all understand that we’re really upping our game here with the podcast because we aren’t we are having, you know, celebrated authors. And that’s right. So we’re

here here and I’m here first on Jessup. Thank and he’s author of numerous books, right. But one of the his most kind of recent book is embodied hope or theological meditation on pain and suffering, came out in 2017. And so that’s what we’re going to be highlighting on the show today, really talking with Kelly about pain and suffering, and how we can approach pain and suffering in a theological way. What to do and what not to do. So I really think you’re gonna enjoy the show. And it’s, it’s gonna it’s so timely with everything that’s going on in 2020. Exactly. This should be a wonderful conversation.

Well, Kelly, thank you so much for being on the show. And we could maybe start out here by making a northern California connection. So you’re actually Okay, you grew up in Lodi?

Yeah, born and raised, and Lodi, California and, miss. Now it’s the Zinfandel capital of the world. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, go there. Yeah. Oh,

that’s great. Well, it’s good to have, you know, another Northern California in here. Even though you’re coming to us from Georgia right now? That’s right. Yep. I’m going to college. And I’ve just kind of recently been introduced to some of your writings. And I know you’ve written several things as I’ve been getting into your works. But it’s really been influenced by your little book for new theologians. I’m maybe drawn to little books, right? When I’m thinking of my students, what I’m thinking my students and hey, what can you read? What will you actually read? But no, I love that. And as much as I would love to get into maybe the nerdy side of theology with you, which we might be able to sprinkle it in. On the show. You also most recently published a book called embodied hope or theological meditation on pain and suffering. And so want to kind of talk about that, you know, and especially, it’s kind of interesting in in 2020, right now, I think there’s there’s enough pain and suffering that we can talk about. And I think it’s so helpful to help us understand how theology can maybe help us talk about and experience pain and suffering and, and I think you do a great job in the book of talking about the limitations of theology or the limitations of trying to answer all of the questions on pain and suffering. But you lead us into a place of, of being able to experience that pain and suffering and experience in in a way where we can experience it with other Christians and with God. And you, you say in the beginning, you kind of talk about how sometimes within the church and sometimes within maybe even the evangelical community, there’s this sense of trying to maybe gloss over pain and suffering, and we want to kind of jump to the promises or jump to the blessing. What do you think maybe that is for for maybe the evangelical community, specifically, why do we, why do we struggle sometimes to really deal with pain and suffering?

Yeah, those are those are great questions. I you know, I think for different reasons. I think, a large segment of kind of evangelicalism in America, we’re kind of

been taught often at a subconscious level or, you know, inference level that you know, happy clappy everything’s good. Be happy. Jesus is in control. That’s great. Kind of, even though we wouldn’t claim to be prosperity, gospel or victorious living but it is a Victorian, like we’re supposed to be getting better and stronger and faster and and so we don’t do very well with members in our congregations. When they when heartbreak happens. And and especially when it’s it’s one thing if it’s episodic, and it’s it’s an intensive difficulty, but then you get to move past it, but for Example things like chronic pain, we really struggle with, because we don’t know how to do that. So I kind of in some ways, I’m trying to respond to two groups. On the one hand, I’m I’m worried about pop evangelicalism who just don’t know how to deal with sadness, and frustration and even anger about things. On the other hand, I’m a reformed Presbyterian theologian, and some of my world which has overlapped with evangelicalism, but weak sometimes on the other end, where it’s almost stoic. And to raise any concerns, means you doubt God’s sovereignty, or you doubt his character, His goodness. And so I’m trying to, to navigate between those two communities and try and draw that draw us back to some biblical themes that I think, speak to both both ends of that spectrum. Yeah, that’s great.

As I was interacting with some of your thoughts, just in preparing for the podcast here, I, you know, was thinking, I guess, on similar lines with with the fact that our therapeutic culture, which we’ve embraced wholeheartedly, at least, in my segment of the tribe, certainly has not really helped us much with that. And I was reading a book this was years and years and years ago is by Allan bloom is one of his books. No, Harold bloom. And it was one of those books that actually nobody read his more famous books were more popular, but it’s called the American religion. And in reading that book, he sort of concluded that the American religion was Gnosticism. And then he named the two major institutions in American, you know, religious institutions in America. First one was LDS. And I was like all into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up Southern Baptists. And so his next example, and his primary example was the Southern Baptist Convention. And I was like, Oh, no, how could that possibly be? Although, as I was reading it, I was just remembering some things I was taught. And yeah, and you know, if it is true, that there sort of gnostic tendencies in that, I can see that that sort of denial of the flesh would would lead to a denial of, of the reality of suffering somehow, if one is Christian. And so um, I think many of us kind of grew up with a double whammy here. Hmm.

Yeah. Go Yeah, go Go. Go. No, no, you. I think that’s Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So nice. So nice. Is that kind of maybe where you’re headed with the title like I was drawn to that title, embodied hope, this idea of that one, maybe realizing we are embodied people. Right. You know, which obviously, that’s what Gnosticism is kind of denying. Is that embodiment?

Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. You even mentioned that right? And then you pick up on that. The Gnosticism. I don’t really we don’t want to get into this right now. But recently wrote a book with an economist named Brian Ficker, who is the one who wrote when helping hurts. And so we did a follow up volume that just came out called becoming whole why the opposite of poverty isn’t the American dream. And in that there is a chapter on Gnosticism. Okay, okay. And it’s that very thing, and, and it is widespread. And so I do think we struggle to make sense of our bodies to value our bodies. And you see this in all kinds of insidious ways, where, for example, in a lot of evangelicalism, the whole goal of the Christian life, or the whole goal is to become a Christian, to be converted. And then once you’re converted, we really don’t know what to do with your life until you die. But you’re gonna get to go to heaven. But we don’t really know why this life matters, except for like trying to be ethical. Try not to commit adultery, try not to steal. Like, we don’t know what investing in this world or why it matters. So we end up very, with multiple personality stuff, because on the one hand, we act like our bodies in this world doesn’t matter. But on on our actual lives. We act like our bodies are all that matter. And so when pain and suffering happens, we’re pretty torn. Because on the one hand, we think, oh, we shouldn’t care if we are hurting. And on the other hand, we see it’s wreaking havoc on my employment, my ability to be employed or my relationship with my spouse or you name it, you know, it affects all kinds of the physical and the spiritual are not easily divided, like we pretend. So

I think that’s particularly true with with, like, I don’t know mental suffering or mental illness. Yeah, I know that it’s my tradition has really struggled with how to deal with and, you know, teaching on a college campus is becoming more and more prevalent. Actually, yeah, yeah. And you know that that sort of goes against the renewal of the mind if the mind is is somehow part of the part of the issue. I know that from personal experience,

right? Yeah, no, I think you’re right, because we come, you know, as Ivan juggles, one of the great part of our tradition, at its best has been the renewal of the mind, and in that way, trying to think carefully. But as we also know, in American evangelicalism, there’s strong roots of anti intellectual ism. So this creates a weird kind of thing. But then when people do emphasize the mind, it always does. It’s like your mind is detached from your body. And there’s lots of empirical neuroscience data, thoughtful arguments to say, it’s way more complicated than that, in fact, our emotions and other things are happening in our minds to kind of follow in those ways, which can be people can get upset about it, or it can be like, it’s kind of like politics, you know, watch your life and your doctrine closely. Because they’re interconnected. You’re not just gonna think, right? If you act like your mind doesn’t matter. Your your life doesn’t matter.

Right. Right. I’ve been called them and intellectual with a sneer several times. And so I try to run away from that, apparently, it’s a really bad thing. Yeah.

Well, one of the things too, in the book, Kelly, that I appreciated as you right at the beginning, you kind of focus on maybe how, how not to approach pain and suffering, if you’re the person not going through it, right. So and I love even even some of the titles of like, the title of your second chapter is don’t answer why I were so quick to want to answer like, why is this pain and suffering happening? And maybe, especially in our setting, as as theologians and as professors, we’re used to trying to explain why things are happening with pain and suffering, as different.

Yeah, I think even and it and it is just at first, I was only annoyed, as, you know, part of the background, which we didn’t talk about when don’t need to, but it’s just this stuff relates to my family and stuff, and particularly My wife has gone through and we’ve been dealing with very, we had cancer and then dealing with serious chronic pain for a decade. But so part of it is I just get annoyed, but I’ve come to see, you know, there, it’s out of good desire, right? People actually want to heal. Right, right. Having said that, good intentions don’t cover hurting people, and certainly should grow in that. And we speak out of turn all the time, as if we know things that we don’t know, you know, it’s kind of like a child is in the hospital and on the verge of death or even will die. And these are all examples they know, and someone who will say, but, but I think God’s gonna use this to save that nurse. Right? Right. Well, if you’re a parent and your child dies, you can be forgiven for saying, right, that’s the last thing. How about we keep my kid and you say, this kid, and now you know this person? Right? And, and or, you know, people will say, well, this happened because of this. Well, what happens is two years later, that nurse leaves the faith. Right? Or this tragedy happened. But look, the church now is going through renewal. But what happens is two years later, the church is exactly where it was again, right? We don’t know. And so I do think we we we so long for clarity and strong found you know, things to base all eyes on? Yeah, and we we say promises are things that we don’t actually know we know that God will be with you in the flame. Yeah, but we don’t know that you’re going to escape the flame right and like Daniel and his friends, you know, he, he’ll be with you, but it doesn’t mean necessarily gonna escape them. Yeah,

I think sometimes we also at least this happens with me a lot is when I’m you know, faced with pain that seems to be clickable and enduring. You know, I feel helpless. It just sort of makes you feel helpless. And and for someone that’s supposed to major in the victorious Christian life, they just sit and feel helpless. Like I really, you know, I I don’t have anything to say and that makes me feel uncomfortable actually. Yeah, no, I I have actually avoided you know, even I pastored for nine years and another one. And I’ve even actually, when I was pastoring, sometimes I would avoid actually ministering as quickly as I should have to a certain situation my parishioners because I did that feeling of helplessness.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s very difficult and especially because And thankfully, it’s starting to be recaptured. But especially because, again, American evangelicals, the audience, I’m thinking primarily of, we have really struggled to understand lament, or to practice limit or to have to feel like it’s doing anything. And and so we do struggle. And so since we can’t lament, and we can’t just weep with people, and we can’t cry to God, I can’t be frustrated with God and ask him questions. We think we actually have to fill that space. And I also have come to see, when people are trying to give us answers. It looks like they’re trying to help the person, but it’s kinda like what you were alluding to there, Rex, often, actually, when we’re trying to get people answers, we’re trying to help ourselves, right? We’re so uncomfortable. It’s just to make us feel better. So who cares if it’s actually true? It makes us feel better. Yeah, but it may be hurting the other person. Right? Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, I

can see that. And I’ve been working at a church for even currently still on staff at a church. And especially in the younger years, when someone would talk. I was trying to come up with answers, but exactly for that reason I was coming in France or so I could walk away being like, I think I answered that pretty well.

Yeah. And, and, and, and even when you’re ministering to people, you know, one of the things you have to learn, they will even ask you for answers, right? They’ll ask like, why did God do this? And if you’re not, if you don’t have enough pastoral experience, you think they’re literally asking you, and you should answer, but it’s a trick question. No matter how good their landmines everywhere, and you don’t know it, and even if they like your answer for a time, six months later, they may come back furious. So you just, it doesn’t matter. Even if they’re asking the question. You got to know what you’re allowed to answer what you’re not. Yeah.

Yeah. And you highlight two, two things to develop as you’re dealing with people going through trials, and that’s pastoral sensitivity, and theological enstein. They call it empathy and Orthodox work together. Yeah. How do you with those, how do those two work together and in the development of those two aspects? Yeah.

Thank you for highlighting I you know, we’re torn. Right. Well, there’s, we kind of live in a tribalistic time we live in a time that’s polarized, though, we just immediately take sides. It’s political. It’s all these kind of things. And you see it infecting the church. So either you care about truth, or you love people. Right? Those are your apparently your only awesome, right? Yeah. And obviously, you know, we want to step back and go, No, no, no. We need to hear about truth and orthodoxy lowercase O is just actually at its basis, right? worship, it’s right. It’s rightfully knowing who this God is, and how do we think about him and talk? So in that way, truth matters, right? But, but knowing God and knowing people knowing ourselves is interrelated. And most of us have experienced people who know a lot of quote unquote, right answers, or good theology, who were beast, who were animals who are just treat people so cruelly. And I actually think it’s not just them being bad, I think it shows some problems in their theology, some misunderstanding, right? So I do think, I think, kind of theology apart from pastoral sensitivity can just breed kind of aloof, intellectual ism, or coldness or something like that. But kind of pastoral care without the ology good theology, kind of can develop just to be reduced to a mere psycho psychology, right? And I want us to be very thoughtful, psychologically, and informed and wise. But we need these together, we need to kind of navigate them and they should feed each other. Right? So some of the challenges in seminary and you guys can probably talk about, sometimes in our seminaries, we train people to read well, and to think well, and to learn about the, but we don’t train them how to, like interpret people, right? And if you can, you can interpret a text and if you don’t interpret people, it’s gonna be a disaster, and you’re preaching and you’re counseling. But we do that a lot.

Yeah, I don’t think I actually was well served by either the seminaries in that in that space, there were very very different places one was pretty fundamentalist, and one was, guess what the fundamentalist would consider pretty liberal. But you’re right. And and I, I value my education in both of them sort of different reasons, but I really did not get that at either one of them. Yeah, I think we’ve struggled with that. For sure.

Yeah. And with the kind of developing theology and again, yeah, holding that holding that Balance. You used an analogy for theology, which I really loved. You said theology is more like farming, then, you know, stacking doctrinal bricks on to each other. And I’d love to, you know, as a person who teaches theology and a lot of times intro to theology, I love to explore that a little bit more like theology as farming. And and what we can gain from that analogy.

Yeah, I know that. You know, and like you teaching, especially introductory theology, kind of thinking through this through the years, I saw some of the problems when trying to imagine that theology is just kind of learning a truth and stacking that as a brick, and then the next brick and the next brick. And that is a quick path to using theology as a weapon, rather than that which cultivates worship. Right. And I think theology is meant to cultivate worship. And in that sense, the garden imagery, the farming imagery works a lot, you you’re tilling the soil, you’re paying attention, with the hope that it will flourish, that this will be that there will be growth that there will be you know, health. And, and we’ve also seen people who read books about stuff, but never enter into the lives of people, it’s a very different thing. You have to get your hands, you can’t just read about gardening, you actually have to get your hands in the soil to kind of figure out what it feels like and what it needs.

Yeah. I love that. And there’s some of that image of, of getting in and because it is, I think, and sometimes it can feel like that in, in evangelical communities and in those doctrinal classes is just like, here’s the right answer, and stacked on this. And then now you can refute arguments against those against those blocks.

And I yeah, I love it. I mean, I tell students, like if you’ve come into class, thinking, Okay, I’ve got Catholic now, and for this semester, for this year, he’s going to tell me what I need to think what’s the right answer? Probably, you’re just going to be frustrated right here, right? I mean, I have I am drawing on the tradition, I want you to learn the Christian tradition. But it’s more complicated. And you know, but but here’s the here’s the thing. With the more organic imagery, it makes sense. Well, let me back up and say this way, when a friend or someone you care about is having trouble. When you think of doctrine like bricks, you’re just it’s you can watch it happen. People are listening until they click, they go, Okay, I know what went. Right, right, which brick they need. But But the truth is, it is more like gardening, where you have to really see the soil and all the soil is different. And even one part of the garden that gets more shade than another is different. So it’s not, and this freaks out evangelicalism. It’s not the same answer to everybody. Yeah, right. I mean, there’s a reason that Paul is emphasizing, you know, the significance of faith and not works, and James is emphasizing, get your butt up and do something, right. They’re not a you know, you and I all of us know, they’re not contradicting each other. But they are applying this biblical truth in different ways to the particular audiences and what they needed to hear. But we struggle with that for some reason. Yeah.

I teach a class. It’s kind of a capstone of the general education here, but it’s it’s called Christian perspective, which it’s a hodgepodge of a whole lot of stuff. But it’s basically just, you know, helping students think christianly about stuff. And and that’s, that’s it’s very difficult sometimes for students to not want to know what the right answer is that they’re supposed to think about something. And the fact that I try really hard not to let them know, you know, what I think about in your opinion, because it comes out, sometimes it might get in my face, there’s just sort of hide that. But that that that really frustrates folks, because you know, that we’re just used to the, we’re not used to tilling the soil and having to do all that hard work, basically. Right.

Yeah. And, you know, just I and I love that you’re putting, because we also whether we’re 18 years old, or 68 years old, we confuse knowing a sentence that is true with knowing the truth. Right. So, so for example, there are people who will say I affirmed the sovereignty of God. And then I’ll have, you know, a little lady has been in church for decades. And she’ll say, I don’t believe in the sovereignty of God, it sounds like because they’re worried she’s worried about something she’s heard about that, you know, maybe you’ve reduced everything to puppet. But then when you pray with these two people individually, the person who says they believe in the sovereignty of God, it is as if everything rests upon their shoulders, and they need to do it all. And this little old woman who denies the sovereignty of God is clearly utterly dependent upon God recognizes his reign in role. And you’re like now who actually understands the sovereignty of God? And that’s very hard for us because we think, Well, no, as long as you say the sentence, you got it. And that’s, you know, sometimes I tell people, we’re always worried that our theology will be better than our lives. And I think that can happen. But I think it’s also true that sometimes our theology, our lives are better than our theology. Right? That woman is testifying to the fact that that God reigns and rules in his sovereign, even if she doesn’t use the words. So

no, after after write that down. I think I can weaponize that against my wife. As a weapon. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah, that’s perfect. I like and I heard that you were kind of quietly said to my wife,

very particular audience. That weapon against that is such a, that’s such a great way to look at it, that sometimes our lives can be better than our theology, right? We live in that can go for that can go for sometimes I think for people who don’t believe in God, sometimes their lives are better than what they would maybe say. Things You know, they do think that there is purpose and that there is, you know, something look for right and, and yeah, way we live.

No, that’s, that’s actually Nietzsche’s whole point. And I know Nietzsche’s really problematic for us as Christians, but I actually I kind of mentioned to him, you told me Yeah, because, because his whole point is exactly what you’re saying that, that Nietzsche says, you guys, the whole God is dead thing. And I did talk about that, and embodied hope. But you guys are pretending that God is dead and saying that he doesn’t exist, but you’re still pretending that your lives have meaning and purpose. You’re alive. you’re experiencing the benefits of this divine transcendent, meaning, yeah, even though you’re denying it, and the real and so Nietzsche says, You guys aren’t ready to be courageous enough to just embrace the darkness. But as Christians, we’re gonna want to say, isn’t that great? rather than getting mad Murthy isn’t a great your life has meaning. Right? And that there are these things. But let’s ask why. You know, where does that come from? Yeah, I think you’re right to bring that up that it’s not just Christians we’re talking about with that. Now.

I think so with this, with this topic of pain and suffering, and maybe especially with 2020. In, in light and, and from the pandemic to racial injustice and to the fires in California, that continued to rage. How would you, how would you maybe guide us and how to work and help people going through pain and suffering? It’s pretty apocalyptic out here, actually. Yeah. Yeah, pretty. Yeah. It’s tough. I mean,

I was on a call with someone the other day and yeah, when you start listing COVID, and racial injustice and economic uncertainties and difficulties and, you know, the fires and that it does apocalyptic actually feels like the right word, to be honest. So I mean, it part of it is what I was mentioning earlier, I actually think practices that we as a church have neglected would be helpful for us like lament. I think the fact that as evangelicalism we’re not very familiar with limit, and especially corporate limit, has made things like social injustice, really difficult for us to handle. Yeah, because we’re not used to communal ideas. We’re not used to. We’re not used to saying, I’m really sorry, I can’t believe that if I didn’t personally do it. And, and, you know, I understand that thinking, but just when we know that’s far more American than it is biblical. Well, I mean, you have communities, you know, Isaiah with me, and I’m a man of unclean lips and with people. But I mean, the idea is far more communal than we’re comfortable with. But all that to say also, then, yeah, the the expression of lament is really important. And to be able to to lament when you yourself, don’t feel it, right. I still have my job. But when my friends at church don’t and they’ve lost it, and it’s really affecting things. Can I weep with those who weep? Yeah, right. And, and it’s not my job, but when one part of the body hurts, we all hurt.

So are there traditions that do that better than others? I was just thinking about that. I’m trying to have you know, I know my my tribe doesn’t do that very well.

Yeah. Well, I honestly think I think this is a great example where the black church in America has actually been great at this. If, and it’s it’s one of the problems of our ignorance about the tradition. So so for example, and I talk something about this, nobody Whoa, but they have a whole tradition of witness. Right. And a lot of white evangelicalism, when we say witness, we instantly and only think about sharing your faces and it really important, very biblical. But there is another sense of witness both biblically and experientially that the black church emphasizes. And that is, so if, if someone’s preaching, or someone’s giving a testimony in that setting, often you’ll hear someone in the congregation is shot witness, you know, or someone say, I need a witness, or you know that, you know, that kind of thing. And the, quote unquote, witness they’re talking about is always twofold. And I think it’s quite beautiful. On the one hand, when they’re talking about witness, they are bearing witness to just how difficult things are for that person or that situation. Right? So that person’s telling the story about being abandoned by their spouse, and having lost their job and being whatever it is. And the congregation, is there bearing witness insane? You’re not crazy. This is as heartbreaking as you think it is. Yeah. And that is such a gift to that person, right? But then the flip side is, they will also bear witness because there’s the person saying, and then this happened, and then this happened. But if you pay attention, they will often say, and God did this in the midst of it, or God was very gracious to me, or God really gave me this song. And we struggle with that, because we think, either it’s really bad, or God is there. And so it’s really good. Yeah. And that twofold witness of, let’s be honest about just how bad things are, and be honest, that God is still good and present. And so I think we have a lot to learn from the black church in this, but we don’t take that as a white shirt, we don’t tend to take that posture of humility, and we’re here to learn. Well,

that works well with that with a metaphor of, of theology, you know, and farming, basically. Because in order to do that, well, you have to get your hands dirty. Yeah. And and that’s difficult for some of us.

Yeah. And it relates to, you know, in America, and whether you want to debate whether this is historically or whatever, accurate, there’s a lot of way of intelligence here, like, we’re now getting persecuted, we’re in the minority. This is it, you know, what do we do? How do we be Christians? You know, we don’t have people in office or whatever, which is bringing up all kinds of other. But anyways, like, what do we do? And I’ve had lakh brothers and sisters, who are Evan jellicle, who say, like, hey, we’ve been doing this for a long time, maybe right? You could actually learn from us on what it’s like to not have power and still try and be faithful. Right? Yeah, right. There are examples for us to look at, that we can learn from. So sorry, I was so excited.

Such a good connection to everything that’s happening right now, and particularly in the racial injustice, arena and understanding Lemaire and being able to stand with our fellow brothers and sisters, in being able to learn that with a community in all of these, in all these settings, I think that’s, that’s really helpful.

Yep. And it can betray the fact when we struggle with it. You know, we’ll say we’re saved by grace and all these kinds of things. But our inability to be empathetic and to lament can betray the fact that actually, even though we would never admit it, we think things are going well for us because of what we’ve done. And it actually betrayed some pretty ugly things in us that are right below the surface. And so we’ve been, you know, we’re like, oh, I’m sorry, you’re hurting. But in our mind, we’re like, well, if you just stop eating gluten, or if you just got a list of 100 things, yeah, there can be some truth to those. But when you’re on the receiving end of that, it actually can be quite cruel, because it is a sense of, actually, I deserve this. This is a punishment. I just tried harder, you know, that kind of thing. And there can be a cruelty to that.

I actually see that that is one. It could be a healthy byproduct, if we would let it be but certainly a byproduct with a pandemic is it seems to be stripping bare a lot of things. Yeah. From from my own folk, even in my own life. And right. Yeah, I’d rather not have been stripped away. But yeah, probably need to be. Yeah. Amen.

That’s great. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the show Kelly. And, and the way that I feel like the principles in your book and just the things you talk about in the book can highlight with pain and suffering and it can you talk in the book, you’re looking at physical ailments, and kind of the chronic pain is that Crux, but like you just did here, it can apply to so many different areas in our life. And, and in current issues today. And, and it really highlighted for me, I think that’s been something really important the way they’re the connection between our theology and our actual life and how we live that. And like you’re saying, We there’s often a disconnect between those two things. And, and part of maybe with this show, and having you on the show is, is helping people think through that that theology does influence maybe how we act not just gives us the right answers for the, you know, the entrance exam with St. Peter. But it actually teaches us men how to live and, and mixing empathy with that right doctrine and getting that blend. And it’s not just one or the other.

All right, that’s Yeah, I know, we’re out of time. But even, like, right now, with the pandemic, what’s been revealed, for a lot of us as individuals and communities, is really what do you think about God? What do you think he’s like? How do you think he works? How do you think he views you? Yeah, that’s all theology, whether or not someone knows that word or not. Right? What do you think about God and how he, and yeah, and telogen? Yeah. And so all of a sudden, a lot of us got meaning from all the activities we did in our life, and they’re stripped away. And we feel like God is disappointed with us. We know like, we don’t know. And it reveals kind of like you’re saying, it reveals what there. And that’s an opportunity for beautiful repentance from life for joy. And we shouldn’t be scared of it. It’s a good thing. We’re all like, you know, all three of us. I know, it hurts. But we’re all theologians. It’s not a question. If, if you’re one, it’s just Are you a good one? Right. And that’s not about an exam. That’s just about life. You guys, thank you.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. And hey, we look forward to maybe having you back on the show. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

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