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Sex & Christian Culture Pt 1

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
Sex & Christian Culture Pt 1
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Mark and Rex wade into the delicate waters of sex and Christian culture. On one hand the church has been labeled as prudish and uptight but on the other hand, statistics show that sexual practice matters little whether you are inside or outside the church.


TRANSCRIPT

0:01
Hey, welcome to Jessup. Think I’m your host, Mark Moore and

0:04
your co host, Rex Gurney.

0:05
And today, Rex, we are talking about a topic that we may be approached with fear and trepidation is a topic that

0:11
I avoided for a long time dealing with until I got convicted that I couldn’t

0:15
avoid it. Right. And it’s a topic we need to talk about. And we definitely need to talk about it without fear and trepidation. That’s something we need to talk about. So we’re going to talk about sex and Christian culture. And I hope you enjoy. So I hope you stick around for for the show, it’s going to be part one or part two. And in this episode, we’re going to kind of talk about maybe statistics within the church right of of our use of sex and abuse of sex. But then also, yeah, culturally, how that how we can frame the conversation. Yeah,

0:49
and talk about it in a redemptive way. In our community. That’s right.

0:53
So hope you enjoy. Now, Rex, yeah, today we are, we’re going to be talking about a topic that that is one that you kind of brought to our kind of brainstorming session. Oh, my God. Yeah, you know, I have to right away, I’m distancing myself

1:16
we are going to go for at least our own podcast has not gone but yeah. So we’re boldly going where no podcasts right. Gossip has gone before?

1:26
That’s true. Yeah. As as the only podcast. That’s right. But we do, but I think it is an extremely important topic, right. And we want to talk about sex and Christian culture. So and not just and we I think we want to kind of why I’ve been kind of titling in that is, is to make a distinction between we’re not talking about just sex in our culture, or our culture’s view of sex. But we actually want to be a little bit more pinpointed on, on on how sex is maybe viewed within the Christian culture, how is it how it is expressed within the Christian culture, and, and things that we are maybe noticing trends that we are noticing, we’re gonna, I really think we’re gonna look at the good and the bad, and try to parse just

2:11
gonna try to reframe the issue in a way that especially millennials, and younger Christians, um, will actually understand and pay attention to, actually because, you know, there is an issue that we sort of don’t talk about a lot. And it is the fact that there’s a significant percentage of young adults who view themselves, even as evangelical Christians that simply reject part of the traditional Christian sexual ethic, and particularly the part about premarital sex. Right? It’s not that they’re ignorant of the teaching of the Bible. They simply reject it for one reason or another. Yeah. And I think we can both agree that the biblical eminent admonitions and and teaching on this has been pretty consistent through the past 2000 plus years, Ram hasn’t really changed much. So how can we maybe reframe the conversation so folks would would take the traditional Christian teaching more seriously than apparently a lot of Christians do. Right. And I’ve heard that we just need to yell louder at people. That doesn’t seem to be working now. Yeah, no. So are there other ways we can talk about it? Are there ways we can address this problem?

3:28
Yeah. And it seems like that there’s might be a good place to start is kind of look at why it has been rejected. I mean, I think it’s kind of noticing the stats, maybe behind it. Although it’s kind of interesting. It does seem like maybe within millennials, and even in Gen Xers, there was kind of this move against the biblical sexual ethic, but also kind of seeing some recent stats where like, Generation Y is having less sex than predecessor. Right, right. Engaging in even drug use less all those things. And so so that’ll be another side topic. I think maybe one of the reasons why kind of my I kind of from the Generation X world, which were like a small little sliver in between the boomers and the millennials, right? Yeah. We’re a sad little grungy group.

4:26
I’m right smack in the middle of the boomers. Yeah, you’re right in the middle. Already retiring and writing right, America. Yep.

4:33
Yeah, you keep going forward. You keep going forward. You got plenty more. Yes. Because we also think we’re 40 Exactly.

4:39
This is a problem.

4:41
That is true. But I think like for maybe Gen Xers and and maybe early millennials on that scale. There seems to be maybe a rejection of the biblical ethic, in some ways is, is maybe a rejection of how the church has presented it. Cool. It’ll be true. And and it does seem like and this kind of starts maybe very early on definitely, definitely in the Middle Ages, but maybe kind of post Augustinian, you know, kind of does flow out of Augustinian thought, is, in some ways this kind of demonizing of sex, right? That that sex is bad, don’t think about it, and try not to do it and only do it to procreate. And then and a Gustin has been very, very influential

5:25
in Christian theology. For a lot of the right reasons, I think, but Brutus is not one of them acts, right. He has bequeath something, particularly the Catholic Church, but also with Protestantism that has kind of not been helpful. As far as tying sex with original sin and all sorts of stuff, right? That’s not really helpful.

5:46
And it and it kind of is interesting, just looking at a little bit of his background, too, for sure. came from a background of having a mistress.

5:55
Right, Lord, man, give me chastity, but not yet.

5:58
Yeah, that was his, his prayer. And so I think in some ways, maybe his move later in his theology was maybe a reaction against sure against that. And then it does become fairly deeply ingrained, right, in the chart, right. Typically, the Catholic Church at the time, but I think, yeah, it spreads to Protestant movement. And, and so there seems to be, but there seems to be maybe two swings to this pendulum, right? There’s the demonizing of sex, then there’s also the glorifying of set, right? That happens in our culture. And And honestly, that’s been every culture from all time, right? I mean, they uncover things, you know, and Pompei. And the first thing they find is frescoes of naked people, right? Like, it’s it’s not a new thing. It’s

6:48
not that death and taxes are the only two constants that probably have to say death, taxes and sex are

6:55
right. Right. And so, but it seems to be this this interesting swing of a pendulum from demonizing sex to then

7:03
over glorifying, especially in our in our Christian culture. So over glorifying married sex. Oh, yeah. Right, that can get really interesting, too, right? Um, you know, if you if you just if you just wait, it’s gonna be great. Right? And that course causes its own issues. Yeah,

7:20
no. I’ve actually heard that described as the sexual prosperity gospel, which is a really interesting phrase, because it’s kind of like you’re sold a product, right? And then that product doesn’t work the way the commercial says it would work. And it can leave you being like, Well, why did I wait?

7:44
And I think one issue with that, and it’s really understandable is because the hyper sexualization of our culture, right, this is a reaction to that. It’s like, you know, this is all around everywhere. I mean, sex sells, sex advertises sex is everywhere, right. And so we understand the power of that. But we guarantee that if you, you know, wait until marriage, then that sex is being sold everywhere will be better, actually. Right. Everybody else?

8:13
Yeah, that’s, that’s, yeah, interesting, that has been sold as it’ll be better. Right. And I think what we mean, by better is we take maybe the hyper sexualization that we’ve received in culture, and we just be like, Oh, yeah, I’ll get that, just without the guilt or without the shame. Right. Right. And, and it’s still in a weird way being influenced by the hypersexuality of our culture, I certainly and, and so we do have to, and so I, I really want to, to be not, I don’t know, for open is the right word, but I really want to be cautious of, of the, of just on the other way to kind of demonizing that too, because it’s a great is, it was a it came up in the church and maybe purity movement. And there’s always been kind of a purity movement, but kind of the one specific we’d be talking about would be almost 80s 90s, early, early 2000s. And, and it was trying to help maybe Christian young people understand was a reaction to the sexualization our culture, understand the nature of sex, understand the importance of sex, the commitment that goes along with sex, right. And so I think that there was a lot of good that that obviously, came with it, and a lot of good intention. But we also just have to be careful about the caveats that can also come with it. Exactly. Exactly. And overselling something doesn’t help and there’s been too many like, are able to be a part of kind of couples counseling and things like that. And there’s just had too many stories of, of where it does it doesn’t work that way. Right? And and so now honestly, when my wife and I do premarital counseling, we always try to warn, especially the Christian couples that we work with that, hey, this they sex is more than just Oh, wait, and then everything is perfect. Right? So. So I think maybe part of reframing this issue is recognizing the two polls, the demonizing of sex that the church has taken part of and being like, hey, that’s not helpful, right? But also the overt glorification of sex, right? And then maybe you I like how you kind of looping it in there, the over glorification of married sex, you know, because that’s not that’s not necessarily the point of, of Scripture and a biblical sexual ethic isn’t if you follow this, you will have an amazing sex life, right? That’s

10:47
somewhere

10:50
where your your neighbor who’s secular is going to have lesser sex life? Because on the other side, they’re also saying the same thing. They’re like, why religion is keeping you from having a good sex. Right. Right. So it’s some ways it’s the same argument.

11:05
It’s interesting how we had we were, yeah, what happens in culture, we want to have a good sex life. And that’s actually another good, good podcast about you know, Christian culture being being a reflection, right? Oh, yeah. Just being a mere like a culture in America. Well, I want to kind of broke this back, though. Yeah, we can sort of the topic du jour here is actually premarital sex. Because, yeah. You know, it’s no, it’s no secret that significant numbers of Christian young people are sexually involved before marriage. Right. And it’s not that they don’t understand the teachings, or they’ve never heard it before. Right. They’ve heard it a lot. And they simply choose to go another way. Yeah, and choose to go another way without feeling they’re necessarily compromising their core Christian conviction. Yeah. Which is an interesting phenomenon. Right. And so there are some drivers in this actually, and and, you know, there are some changes in our culture and in our society that complicate this question, I think, and, and one of them is, of course, the fact that many young people are waiting until their late 20s to get married. Yeah. And that’s in our society. Right. And it is it is in Christian society to actually outside of maybe some Christian school. Right, right. Right, right. That’s asking a lot of a lot of people to basically say for like, the 1015 years that you, you know, or at least that that culture will say you’re in your sexual prime, we’re asking you to abstain. And 15 years is a long time. Right, especially in a culture that’s hyper sexualized. And that’s a that’s a complicating factor. With this. We’re asking a lot of folks. But yet the biblical teachings still pretty clear. So how can we talk about it in ways that folks will take seriously Yeah, give give reasons, more, waiting until marriage reasons even if you’re going to be married in your late 20s?

13:10
Yeah. And that reason has to be better than like, it will be better if you wake up. Right? Exactly. You can fall into that trap of right of just trying to sell like, actually, it’s gonna be better for you to wait. And, again, it is better, right? The biblical narrative would say it is better to wait, what that doesn’t mean is that then sex is easy peasy. And everything right? Is is all fun and games after you get married. But yeah, it does seem so understanding that we kind of waiting longer, and that seems to be culturally overall. Exactly, exactly what we’re a secrecy culture is just mirroring that, yeah, we seem to be postponing a lot of those, maybe markers of adulthood that are happening later that that right in their 70s happened in early 20s. Now are happening in early 30. And

14:01
so one solution to that, I guess, would be you know, just I mean, what’s the issue, just get married early, ring by spring, and then you’re married and then write all these issues? Right? Um, but of course, we’re not. We’re not really avoiding anything with that. Right? Yeah. And the, you know, the data is still out about what happens with that. And so it’s a complicated thing. It’s a really complicated thing. But what we we you know, I guess both of us in our, you know, pastoral hats, right, and such would wish for and what is actually in culture sometimes aren’t the same thing. And so right, we would need to somehow be realistic and deal with integrity with what is actually out there. And that’s something I’ve grown more and more convinced about, and I don’t have the silver bullet for this. I’ve just been trying to find in the Christian perspective class that I talked about, it was sort of the elephant in the room that for years I didn’t talk about Yeah, but it’s the biggest elephant in the room right now with a 10 foot pole, but yet I just felt like it was dereliction of duty if we didn’t talk Talk about that, and talk about that in an honest way and try to reframe the conversation

15:05
well, and, and, and when you’re in a hyper sexualized culture, everyone else is talking about it. And so the church does have to talk about it. Right. And, and so I think maybe like, let’s, I’m just trying to picture Yeah, like maybe a young millennial or even Generation Y, coming to us and be like, okay, okay, Mark, and Rex, you know, try to explain to me why I should wait. Right. Right. And, and I think that that is, it’s good to frame it through that of like it because they know and maybe they know the Bible verses and that maybe speaks to like a different podcast on the role of Scripture plays in our lives, right, and the role of scriptural authority like that is, but I think even beyond that, like the way I’ve I’ve began to approach it and and what approaches someone and even had to wrestle with it in my own spiritual walk around of like, hey, what, what does scripture say about because there isn’t to like that one verses says, Thou shalt not have sex before marriage. There’s, it’s kind of a conglomeration of verses that highlight, this is the best way, right? And maybe the best expression of our sexuality, the way God has created, although some

16:13
people would argue difference, they would they would say that actually, what fornication would be right? Yeah, the sex and adultery is, right. Is extramarital sex.

16:22
It’s kind of it’s kind of a elusive word. Right? Right. And we have it, we have to add some definition to it. And so I always like to kind of start with the why. Because even even just knowing something is wrong, doesn’t mean you’re like, Oh, I know, it’s wrong. I’m not gonna do it. And, and in fact, I in another class, and I even in a rogue podcast episode that I did that you weren’t even a part of, kind of talk about that. Usually, when we find out something’s wrong, it makes us want to do it even more, right? Like, we’re like, oh, and that’s part of maybe this whole idea of personal freedom. And so maybe the solution to this is we just shut the podcast down right now and just talk about all this. Yeah, we don’t know. But I think I think talking about the the why not just saying hey, it’s wrong, don’t do it, which which I feel like maybe the church did for a long time. Just it’s wrong, don’t do it. Don’t think about it. And, and then what happened is, people were still doing it, it was just in private, and then no one was talking about it. And it just had, like, heap loads of shame. We’re just, we’re just piled on to the topic to where we couldn’t even really talk about it. So. So I think us as a church talking about it, talking about the why more than just hey, these are the verses that tell you don’t do it.

17:43
And also, I would add something actually on even more than the why cuz I think the Why is essential. But yeah, you have to have reasons to go against the culture, because you’re getting cultural messages. Yeah. And we need to have compelling reasons to, to somehow, you know, go against or ignore cultural messages that are pretty attractive and enticing. There’s a lot of stuff going on with it. Right. I mean, sell sells, and it sells because it’s sellable. Right. And the reason it right? And so giving the why, but also, you know, letting letting people know that we understand the context, we understand the pressures, we understand, you know, some some changes that have happened in culture that that impact this whole thing. You know, I think it’s helpful that if I feel like I’m understood, then I may be more open to what you have to say,

18:41
there you go. Yeah.

18:42
And that you understand what’s really going on. Right? You know, instead of instead of not, that’s why honesty in this about, yeah, what’s happening, I think is really, really important.

18:52
Yeah, that’s so important, because I think when the church took a stance of kind of demonizing sex, it kind of didn’t speak honestly, to how we are created as human beings, that we are sexual beings. Sexuality is a part of our lives. It’s not the main goal. It’s not the focus, right. But we are sexual beings. And so, if the church demonizes that, then the person is like, You’re not even talking about real life.

19:21
One thing that Richard foster said, actually, that I thought was really helpful in dealing with this issue is that not only have we like demonized it, but we’ve actually narrow cast at it, you know, to, to just talk about sex. I mean, and I’m just gonna go ahead and say this genitally right, and not talk about the fact that we are sexual beings and it actually affects almost every area of our lives, right. And, and so if we can broaden that conversation, that sort of demystifies some of it and it also opens up for people to have at least to entertain the possibility that they that their sexual expression, they can be sexual beings and have a legitimate and healthy sexual expression without engaging in genital sex, right. So it’s not a false dichotomy with right. And and so far, we haven’t been very good about talking about that either. Right? Because of the demonization of it. And yeah, you know, let’s let’s be honest, it’s it’s powerful stuff, this is powerful stuff we’re talking about right? And not talking about it does not make it any less powerful,

20:33
right. And that seems maybe to be one of the the first steps is just the church being better at recognizing and being able to talk about us as human beings as sexual beings, not only sexual beings, but but like, well, Foster was saying that it is something that is a part of being human that can affect all areas of your life, it’s not just a small part of your life. And, and so recognizing that we’re sexual beings. And then maybe Yeah, recognizing that, that God has spoken to us about, hey, this may be the best way to express that. Thanks, Ronnie. Right like, and, and I often like to frame it through that lens of, of, of wisdom, okay, and, and through the lens of wisdom. And it can maybe, you know, when I think about it, it can almost sound like, this is the better option, like the better but I don’t mean it’s better, like, Oh, your sex life will be just as affirming as what you saw on the friends episode, you’re watching or whatever, the which I’m glad friends has come back. Because now I can make those references to cultural

21:42
phenomenon. People actually, it’s

21:46
like that it comes back does once once podcasts on that, but when they see that, so it’s not that but it’s better in the sense of it actually is maybe more in line with how we are created as sexual beings. And that, that our sexuality and how we express it is maybe not just about us. Right, and it involves others, and we can use it to abuse other people. Exactly. Exactly. And I think I think the reason why God was maybe concerned about getting this message about sex to to humanity, through the Hebrew Scriptures through the New Testament, was to say, Hey, this is a part of your existence. That’s also a part where you can really hurt each other, right? And you can hurt yourselves, right? And so maybe having maybe having a different view of this will be a view that says, Let’s, let’s wait until this act can be aligned with commitment and love. Where, where if you even those two things, right, aligning it with a deep commitment and love, you could say marriage, right, right. But what’s funny, there is even in marriage doesn’t always come with commitment or love. That’s really, really interesting. I

23:14
mean, and you know, folks actually sort of talk about that about actual, like, sexual abuse in marriage. And it’s like, well, how can that possibly be? Well, it actually can be yes, if it’s not hooked to commitment and love. And the commitment piece is really, really interesting. I am in you know, trying to find every angle that I can possibly talk about this for for my students and seeing what sticks. I mean, I’m just tossing stuff. And just seeing, you know, what sticks and what might, you know, cause somebody to, to, you know, reevaluate their behavior. And there was a guy named Gary cutting who talked about the fact that the dominant sexual ethic in our culture now, which is sort of reinforced everywhere, and we even see it in our politics, we see it in in the metoo movement, we see it in everything is trading a sexual culture of commitment to a sexual culture of consent. Now consent is not a bad word, right? Yeah, this is not like like you know, commitment good consent bad commitment. Both good both are good when you’re exchanging one for the other. It does change the playing field a lot. Right? And it really, you know, makes it a lot slippier and in are also simply devalues I think the the why that we’ve been talking about biblical injunctions, you know about the correct place of sex. Yeah. Which is always tied to commitment and yeah, and really lifetime marital commitment, right. But that’s sort of devalued in the culture right now like it sex is. The only way it can be wrong is if it’s not consensual. Right? Well, you know, once you start getting to that It’s really hard to even sometimes to figure out what’s consensual. Right? And, you know, we’ve we’ve totally, you know, on college campuses, the whole culture is just huge. never happens to Jessup. But on college campuses, everywhere else, send your kids to Jessa. It’s huge. And there have been a lot of people, even in Christian colleges, just wondering, what do you do about it? How can you, you know, talk about that? Yeah. And, and part of the, I guess the ethos of the hookup culture is the ethic of consent. But you know, once you start talking about that, since a lot of this is so heavily driven by alcohol consumption, everything else is. So what is the line there? Yeah.

25:39
You know, and the lines shift? Yeah. And you can end up consent driven by peer pressure, or by cultural pressure, like, Oh, this must be something I should do.

25:50
How many drinks Can you have before you lose your ability to write to actually you don’t have consent about something? Right. Yeah. And that’s, that’s an issue when these things kind of go together? Yeah. And we just sort of see that everywhere? Well, nuts,

26:03
I think it’s been an interesting thing within culture, is currently with all the things that have been happening and and in a really good way, shining light on the right use of exact right, we’re seeing that all over again. And it’s the abuse of sex in power positions and things like that, which is really good. And it also highlights that, even within our culture, there’s this recognition, hey, sex can be misused, right? Sex can be the sex is is can be volatile. And so it’s not just, oh, hey, yeah, if two people consent, everything’s fine. Assessing

26:36
me just in the scandals, any the stuff that’s happening right now, right, it’s kind of everywhere. Right. Right. So so they all hinge on whether the sex was consensual, or whether it wasn’t a power and abuse of power or something. But the fact that we would even have that conversation, and that issue is that the whole ethic of consent, apparently, is not the silver bullet that makes everything okay, right. Right. And we’ve abandoned, you know, the biblical view of sex and commitment. Yeah. So the cultural, the conversations changed, and it’s not helped us any, it’s not helped us at all.

27:14
And it seems to be that, then that culture of commitment that we’re maybe talking about of of going back to is, is a way that it frame sex as as an expression of being human and being a sexual being in a relationship that is that that starts with commitment first, that doesn’t lead with the body. And, and within that, that maybe sense of security

27:45
and durability safe.

27:47
Yeah. So that when you can actually then be vulnerable with someone, you’re now vulnerable with someone in in the midst of a committed relationship, right, that you’re devoted to each other, to love each other to figure each other out

28:01
is fascinating. So people know, don’t even know what that would be.

28:04
Right? Yeah, that ended and it is good to point out that that just because you get married doesn’t mean that happens exactly exact. So this the same, it’s kind of funny, the same crystal Christian sexual ethic applies to marriage, right? It’s not that marriage is the Oh, just wait to your marriage. And then it No, the same thing that that sex is not to be used selfishly and not to be abused. But it’s really about being vulnerable and committed between two people and, and, and strengthening that commandment through that. Right. And, and for me, that’s where I come back to right of why, why it is the best and and, and honestly, a lot of people in in our stories that who have had sex before marriage, they may come to realize I yeah, I really didn’t gain anything by that. Right, that, that if I was in a relationship where I was committed and loving, and then especially that that flies in the face of any type of hookup culture, right. Like you said, there’s, there’s so many factors that go into that part of it is that if hookup culture is just expected, then people are like, Oh, this is just what people do. People do as expected. Right. And, and then that that’s not

29:22
helping anybody. It spreads, as someone once said, two incompatible myths about sex in the first place. Right? That that it’s nothing, right. But it’s everything. You need to do it right. And so but that actually does not compute,

29:37
right? Yeah, that’s that’s so amazing, right? And the idea that maybe within culture, and maybe you could say even within the church on how we always talk about it, but yeah, there’s like these two myths that that hang out together, but actually a paradox right there, that sex is nothing so doesn’t matter. As long as it’s consented. Just just it’s fine. But also then sex is everything and you should sell your life around. I’m

30:05
a young person, I’m not going to get married until I’m 28. I’m convinced believing Christian, but I get involved in this relationship and it has a sexual component. But then it doesn’t work out. Because honestly, a lot of them die either goes to marriage. Oh, yeah, right. Right. And it doesn’t. Yeah, um, then what am I left with? And is there any way that I can be recovered?

30:27
Oh, definitely. You know what I mean, right. Yeah. And that’s, that’s to where the where the church is message needs to be careful and worded with grace, because it’s not like, Oh, you’ve met your Sacco there. Yeah, you’re sorry about you’re out of the club, right in the club?

30:44
Because there’s a whole lot of people can be at the club before just

30:47
Oh, yeah. Club, right. Yes. A whole lot of the church, you’re gonna be, we’ve already talked about that. And, and so yeah, I mean, I think we have to be able to speak that. That message of restoration and a message of redemption. Right, that that. And that’s where that idea of maybe taking shame away from it as one I understand, right? Because I think that is meaning like, overly shameful that, that sex is not shameful. But what that doesn’t mean is just a glorification of of sex. But But taking that away, so that, yeah, people can can find that and, and I, and I think couples coming together saying, hey, that sex as a part of our marriage is going to be a place where we show our commitment and love and, and, and our loyalty to each other. And, and this is a place where we want to foster that vulnerability, but what happens is often we come into marriage.

31:51
All right, sexual wounds. Yeah.

31:53
Right, with our guards already up so high, right? That, man, it just it, it creates a lack of intimacy. And that’s the other thing I think, as as human beings, I think we’re we’re driven towards sex not just biologically or physically, we’re driven towards sex because we we want intimacy. Right. Right. It’s connection. And, and, and one of the things I think we find out and I think our culture knows, because as you see it in literature, and in film, Oh, for sure, TV shows that, that an overuse of sex doesn’t lead to intimacy, right. I mean, it’s they kind of we already know that, right? I mean, like a character like a Barney stimpson on How I Met Your Mother, who was just known, or Joey on friends, who’s known for this being a ladies man. And that’s kind of it’s kind of praised. But I think that shows also kind of show. Yeah, there’s not a ton of fulfillment that happens, either. Right, right. That doesn’t seem to be intimacy that comes from any of those experiences.

32:56
There’s an interesting quote that I that I once read, um, from a pastor, Catherine wills, Percy, so we’re not going to get involved in argument about women’s ministry. Right. And that’s a different podcast. But we, she basically is trying to find a way to talk to her parishioners and her church. Yeah. And, and give reasons for, you know, abstaining from premarital sex when she herself didn’t in other relationships, because that’s just pretty common. Right? How did she talk about isn’t just do as I say, not as I did? Or is there something for that that can be useful? Yeah, actually, in helping people to actually in reserve sex or marriage. And so she says, I don’t know how to encourage my parishioners, let alone my own children to consider saving certain intimacies for the wedding night without descending into the same sort of supercilious finger wagging, that contributed to the calcification of my shame. Interesting. She uses that word, amen. And then there’s the hypocrisy angle. How do I preach abstinence when I myself have failed to abstain? Do I say, not as I did, but as Paul cautioned, every other centered person commits is outside the body. But the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. And then she quotes First Corinthians 618 I know this firsthand. So perhaps I hold up my pain. All that fooling around before marriage ever did was give me a world of hurt. Yeah. And and I don’t know if you’d like our next statement here. Maybe it’s actually pushing too far on the sex is great when you’re married. Okay, angle, but she does have another sentence here, which I think is is a good one, she says, but I can’t hold up my pain without also lifting high my joy that all that fooling around within marriage ever did was give me a world of healing. Yeah. And I this is a really powerful, powerful. Yeah, it is that this hurt and the shame before but the healing when it’s right, and it’s good, and it’s worked out to be

34:48
Yeah. And I think that I think that we can present it that way without falling into some type of sexual prosperity gospel. Right. Right. That that sex in in the right In the right way, has that ability to heal and bring a couple together. And it has the

35:08
Marvin Gaye never even imagined for

35:10
exact some harvesters, right. Oh, yeah, there we go, you know, Marvin Gaye, that yeah, that this there has that ability. And, and, and so yeah, to, to not overly I mean, I think, you know, place maybe to land our conversation here. And then we are going to pick this up with a part two, right? And bringing in someone from our psychology faculty, and really excited about that to kind of get into because there’s, there’s more than to the act of sex than meets the eye. Right. And there’s so much more. It’s not just a physical act. It’s a logical

35:45
and emotional and spiritual. Yeah. I want to talk about it that way. And so heavy stuff here.

35:52
Yeah. And so I think it’s important because that, that seems to me to be also more reasons of why Hey, the biblical sexual ethic. Yeah,

36:03
there’s a reason for it,

36:04
of guarding our sexuality, not like guarding it with never talking about it, but by protecting it from being wounded, protect protecting it, from wounding others, right. Right. And, and growing into a whole unhealthy person. And I think maybe as we as we land here, it’s just a recognition for one that the church has always been good, maybe an understatement, has always been good at talking about sex, and demonizing it does not help anyone over glorifying it doesn’t help to help either, right? Because it just leads to more hurt. And, and, and more issues that we can see in our news right now. And culture right now. Right is basically an example of the abuse of sex. Right? And, and recognizing that scripture highlights us as sexual beings, right? This is a part of us, and that God cares about our sexuality, just like he cares about whether we believe in his existence, or he cares about other issues. He cares about our, the sexual side of our nature, and we could we get into some deep theological waters even thinking about that, and what do you mean, I don’t know, being created in the image of God, not that necessarily God is a sexual being right. This means we are we are sexual beings because of that. But if, if sex is actually an intimate relational, healing, whole thing that we have created for to be relational, yeah, in the deepest and most sacred relationships,

37:48
you know, in the God given economy have a sexual component. And that’s a good thing.

37:53
Yeah. And yeah, and that does kind of bear that image of godness. Right. And, and so, yeah, as we talk about it, I agree with you. It’s not just yelling louder. You shouldn’t be having sex before marriage. Try that. That’s for one half of us would then be hypocrites, right? Full disclosure,

38:13
I don’t know. I’m not gonna

38:17
be hypocrites.

38:18
And the other half of a lie,

38:19
right? Yeah, and the other half be lying. And, and that’s not helping, because just telling someone something is wrong, doesn’t doesn’t help anyone understand? Why, right? But just to understand, hey, we are sexual beings. And, and sex is good. And it was a created thing. And, and God wants us to enjoy that. And there’s also some caveats that go along with that, that it can be misused, and it can be abused. And that’s within and with outside of marriage. Right. Right. And, and highlighting it as a place of commitment and a place of love. Not just a way to hook up or not just something to do, because that’s what culture does. And not even something to do, because that’s what the Bible says, You know, I mean, I can see where it can be misused there as well. But it’s an important part of our lives. It’s an important part that we should be talking about. And it’s an important part of our faith. It is. And so talking more about it is going to be better. And so I’m excited to continue this in our next episode. Sounds good. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

39:51
If you’re interested in learning more about Jessup, please visit us at jessup.edu. William Jessup is the premier fully accredited four year Christian you University in the Sacramento area offering over 60 academic programs in undergraduate and graduate studies designed to see every student equipped and transformed into the leader they are called to be as you go. Don’t forget to hit subscribe and share so you never miss an episode. Thanks for joining us for Jessup Think.

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