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The Coronavirus Pandemic, the Black Plague, and Other Catastrophes

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
The Coronavirus Pandemic, the Black Plague, and Other Catastrophes

Rex and Mark record their first socially distant podcast and discuss how the Christian community has responded to pandemics in the past and how it can best respond now.


Welcome to Jessup think I’m your host Mark Moore, and your co host Rex Gurney. And today Rex on the show. We’re going to talk about what everyone has been talking about and that is the coronavirus pandemic.

And you probably noticed that we are actually not in our studio, but we are doing this from the comfort of our own. I don’t know where are you at Mark? I’m in my guest room actually. Okay, okay, I’m in our guest room turned off syncing. Both both guestrooms Yep, there we go. Everything’s perfect. And

we got our own little studios for schools and And now for the podcast. And we really want to focus in today’s episode, just kind of highlighting the Christian response maybe to everything that’s going on, there’s been so much on the news, so much. So many rages daily. It’s just, it’s all over the place. It does. Yeah, you could you could kind of think, you know, something one day, and within a couple of hours, it changes, right. And there’s also been a lot that maybe Christians have put online and different responses to this. And we just kind of want to cover it. What does it look like to to be a Christian maybe in the middle of this pandemic? And what are some of our responsibilities? And what are some of our actions and reactions to this?

Rex, we are not in the studio today. We are zooming away from from the studio there. Jessup, Stan safe, how are you doing during this quarantine?

Um, you

know, I’m actually working more than I usually do, which is interesting, because, you know, it’s not like, I’m going anywhere. And that computer is always staring at me. And those Jessup emails are always staring at me. And so I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. I have to actually just deliberately, like, put my phone away. And you know, at a certain time in the evening, just so that I don’t just work all the time.

Right. I know, it’s true. And it’s praying for so many people who are listening to podcasts, and now they’re working at home, I have found that I’m working more and yeah, it’s because the computer is always there. I can always sit down and grade a little bit more, right answer another email, right. And so you do have to kind of find this kind of balance, right.

And something else, you know, for those of you who may not only be listening, but it’s possible that there might be some video with with this podcast where we’re going to, we’re all in sort of uncharted territory right now. So we decided on the podcast to do the same thing. And you probably noticed that there’s, there’s a handsome guy with a beard there. And then there’s, then there’s Rex Carney. Pretty much what we looked like, both, I guess bearded wonders here. But you know, as right, that comes with the beard.

That’s exactly. And I’ve been encouraging people who kind of during this time of quarantine, it’s a great time to grow a beard. So,

well, I may be more than that, actually. Because it just kind of dawned on me like sometime last week that depending on how long this is, and depending on you know, if this thing, you know, spins into the summer, then I might not be able to get a haircut for like three months. And so if I can’t get a haircut for three months, I might as I might just throw caution to the wind and you know, come back to school next fall with a ponytail. We’ll see. There we go. We’ll see.

I’m looking forward to that. You heard it here on the podcasts. There’s gonna be a Rex Gurney Tony Dale, go just fold john the baptist on everybody. slit her hair out that you’d

say I already did that. I have my midlife crisis about 15 years ago. And I decided to to grow my hair like it was in college. And so I kind of that might have been a little bit before you got here. But I also weighed like 40 pounds more than I do right now. And so it was not a pretty picture. My gray long hair. Anyway. I’m glad I got all that out of my system. And

oh, hey, man, we might we the listeners and viewers may want to see that. So we’ll keep we’ll keep people posted on on Instagram. You can check out these. But But yeah, as we kind of look at this global pandemic, and and like you said, Rex, I mean, we’re all really in uncharted territory. Right. Now, what’s interesting is this isn’t uncharted territory for humanity. No, or for Christians actually, or for Christians. Yeah, that’s such a good point. That pandemics plagues, epidemics, have been a part of our history, and, and have come in so many different times. And so I think it is important for us to kind of have that historical perspective. I know we are throwing a little history with you, Rex. And I think it’s important because we can kind of feel like, Oh, this is maybe the first time we’re experiencing Yes, but it is for our generation, right and prior generation, but this is a common human experience

it is. And it’s sort of interesting, I guess, because, you know, I’m especially, you know, because I’m a kind of a middle baby boomer. And and so, you know, we just sort of thought we would escape all this stuff, you know, write stuff that happened to maybe our grandparents and, and you know, might happen to our grandchildren. But it’s certainly not going to happen to us, because honestly, we’ve had it so good, so long. It’s just true. Right? But you know, here you go. It’s been 100 years, pretty much, actually, it hasn’t been 100 years, which is really interesting. I’ve been reading up on a lot of this, and people are talking about it. And some of our listeners may even remember this. I don’t, mainly because I was a toddler, but the whole polio scare the 1950s I mean, apparently, people were social distancing. For that back in the 1950s. And of course, everybody, you know, if you didn’t know about it, you know about it. Now, the 1918 influenza epidemic? Yeah, the Spanish flu. And, you know, we often think about the Black Death in the 1300s. But that wasn’t the first time to play ever, you know, came in decimated parts of humanity. There was a horrible plague in the five hundreds, sometimes they call it Justinian plague. Wow. And perhaps up to, you know, a third to a half of the people in the Byzantine Empire actually lied. Yeah, and, and then, you know, for those of our listening audience that know, Roman history, during the third century, which would be the two hundreds, Rome, came really close to falling apart. Like it did sort of semi fall apart for a while and right, we different empires, but part of the part of the issue of that horrible century was, you know, waves and waves of what they called, and we would call the plague would just decimate communities. And then yeah, and this is before Constantine, which means this is before Christianity became legal and recognized. So right, we had these plagues that are that are devastating, especially urban areas of the Roman Empire, and you have still what is, in some ways, an underground church that is responding to all of this and living through all of this with, with them, you know, their fellow citizens in the Roman Empire. And that gets really interesting, because many scholars think that this actually was a real it was it was, you know, sort of good propaganda for the early Christian church, because of their response, basically, to what was happening. Oh, yeah, if you had any means at all, and you had your Villa out in the countryside, you would just take off, and you would just leave the poor of masses to just rot fester and die pretty much, right? Yeah, Christians wouldn’t do that. And not only would they not just, you know, take care of their own, they would take care of the pagan abandon also. And people notice that, and they noticed that there was something really, really different about that. And, and that was really a good sign for the growth of the church, actually.

Yeah, that’s really interesting, too, that that kind of wraps into this idea of response. Right. It is a mix right that time? Yeah, it’s a response actually showed the church as something different. Right. And we are responding right now. Oh, yeah, we are. And it’s, it is really interesting to kind of Yeah, kind of see some of the different responses. And before we get to the Christian response, because because we’ll talk about that. I do think it’s interesting, and it kind of highlights what you were saying maybe for the the middle baby boomers. But I think in some ways, it’s kind of this. It was a mindset that came from modernity, but it’s kind of this mindset that, hey, we are growth growing and developing and advancing and all these areas, sure, we’re going to we have nature under control, right? Or upward, right? And then it’s something like this. It’s something like a pandemic that, that I think makes everyone realize, whoa, we don’t have this under control. Yeah, and there’s so much that we don’t know. And, and so I think that’s been interesting. And in many ways, it’s kind of put us all in, in in a level playing field.

It’s really gonna help with feeling for people like me, and my generation that really felt that we did. Yeah, you know, and now we, and now we’re like, you know,

you know,

possibly the segment of the population that may be most

Right. Right now to that right now. It’s It’s interesting. too I did here. I did hear one kind of what I would call funny response to, to this. And it was in kind of a newspaper article, which this has actually been kind of great for the news industry. So newspapers are doing well. So it’s it’s a, some some rise some fall, right. But I was reading this and someone who was as from a younger generation, and they they made this claim about the pay now, but they were like, We didn’t ask for this. And I thought, Well, I hope not. Like, is anyone? Right? Like, I mean, maybe like smite and smoke my enemy, right? I mean, like, maybe someone, you know, maybe some student out there was like, God, I need to get out of this semester, or I need to, you know, I need to get out of school. But no one’s asking for a global pandemic. So I was like, well, that’s just kind of an interesting, interesting response. And then, of course, now, with everyone being kind of quarantine, for the most part, I mean, like, they were saying, almost three fourths of the US now will be kind of understate at home. By the time we’re recording this, there’ll be a stay at home kind of orders. And so more people are online, and more people are sharing things and, and making videos and making

your mental and spiritual health to actually so so for my own, you know, sanity, and actually my own, you know, Christian home, about a week and a half ago, I decided to delete a lot of my news apps off my phone and take the shortcuts off of my computer. Yeah, you know, just look at some of the local stuff. Because I’ve got to know, I’ve got to know what you can and cannot do. And I have to know what the latest information is. But you know, there’s just so much stuff out there that’s just not helpful on both sides, either. is completely falling in. This is like the death of humanity, or it’s nothing. Right. You know, it’s neither one of those things are helpful.

Yeah, and it’s true. Like, I think that especially in a in a time of 24 hour news, right? It’s just, it isn’t helpful all the time, just to have it on. And some people now working at home, maybe just have it on in the background all day. And it’s, yeah, can really be overwhelming. And so I think that’s difficult for me, because I

mean, I’m a history professor. And, you know, part of that is you’re supposed to, you know, sort of this is a historical moment. I mean, it is, yeah, we’ll write about this in the future, you know, so, you want to you want to be mindful of what’s going on. But But, you know, you also need to be mindful of your own spiritual health, too. Yeah. So if you can write about this stuff, indeed, you do personally survive it. And so I just needed to stop. Stop listening to everything, right.

I think that’s, that’s good. And that’s just kind of good advice. And it was interesting. One of the things that started to go around kind of online, and actually one of my sons showed this to me was, was people were kind of thrown around the passage set of Second Chronicles 713, to 14, specifically out of the good news Bible, so the GNB version. And it says, this says, whenever I hold back the rain, or send locusts to eat up the crops, or send an epidemic on my people, if they pray to me and repent and turn away from the evil they have been doing, then I will hear them and haven’t forgive their sins and make their land prosperous again. And it was kind of being put around online saying, hey, look at the beginning of 2020, with all the fires in Australia, because of no rain. And apparently, there’s a locusts kind of epidemic happening in Africa right now. Then, obviously, the global pandemic. And I just, you know, when my son was kind of showing me that I was like, Well, I can see how someone reading that, particularly maybe in the GMB could be like, Whoa, that seems to be speaking directly to what’s happening. And I was fascinated because it’s actually a really good example of, of how we can take some certain passages from Scripture and maybe Miss apply them or if we don’t kind of start with the proper context, right. And sometimes it does look like they fit just perfectly with modern day kind of happenings. And we have to kind of pause real quick and say, Okay, let’s let’s look at maybe the context. And one thing even even beyond that, because this what’s interesting is this is in the context of Solomon dedicating the temple. So it’s really in a joyous time that’s happening for the Hebrew people. And but one thing that I I’m always cautious of anytime something like this happens anytime a big event in history or big catastrophe happens. I was mindful of us trying to make that direct connection with causation and God that oh, God must be causing this to judge us. And maybe what why do you think we’re, we’re often quick to, to make that connection?

Well, there’s, there’s a whole lot there and a whole lot behind there immediately. What, what the image that came to my mind was, you know, when a hurricane katrina came through, and people were showing images of the Doppler radar, and the Doppler radar looked somewhat like a human fetus. And so, and that was like, everywhere on the internet, oh, yeah, certain Christian corners of the internet. And that was like, you know, proof that God was sending us during her Hurricane Katrina to punish, and this is where it got kind of fuzzy, but it hit New Orleans, but it’s a sort of punish America for, you know, our sin of legalized abortion. Right. And, and, you know, once again, when there’s a devastating earthquake in Haiti, you know, God sends this to Haiti, you know, 200 years later, interestingly enough, in order to punish them for something that happened 200 years ago, because they apparently made a deal with the devil in order to get independence from France. And, and, you know, there’s all sorts of things going on there. But I think the deeper thing with this is, is our kind of response to, you know, how we feel about you know, theodicy when when, you know, especially what we would call natural evil, right, yeah. Right. So, so earthquake, hurricane, pandemic, you know, and, and, you know, since the rain seems to fall on the just and the unjust alike with this, that one, you know, possible way to do and is what you know, is what’s God trying to teach us through this or punish us for or whatever you look for that causation? Because that’s one answer, actually, to what some people call natural evil. There are other Christian answers to that. But it is not uncommon one, and of course, you’re seeing it, obviously, right now.

Yeah. And I think that’s it’s really interesting to kind of bring up that theodicy question right? So when we talk about theodicy, we’re looking at how do we reconcile God’s justice and and kind of the evil that we see in the world and particularly here like you’re saying Rex natural evils. And and saying, okay, God and yeah, and so so Christian responses in the past have been maybe a direct connection to judgment. And and then another one has been kind of that teaching one right kind of though, we will call pedagogical approach. And, and I think that those have some elements of where they can help us understand maybe some events, but they also, for me, always kind of made me take a step back and say, Whoa, do I want to do I really want to put everything of this onto God? And, and that God is saying, Okay, now, I’m going to take my time to judge the whole world with this type of pandemic and like you said, the the rain falls on the just and the unjust. So it’s not just all people who are unjust, who were who would be getting it and that’s why I always want to be cautious. Now, what that doesn’t mean is that in the midst of a global pandemic, we can ask ourselves, hey, what is God teaching me in the midst of this global pandemic? But that’s different than causation, right? What Why is God caused this to teach me that’s different? It’s very different. Right? And I think it’s, I think it is important to kind of maybe ask ourselves, especially in a time where we get to slow down our normal routines are kind of broken and and we’re approaching our life differently is is a great time to be like, Whoa, how have I been living my life? What has been really important to me that in these last two weeks isn’t important anymore?

Right, right. And that’s something that I’ve been thinking very deeply on and spending a lot of time which I have a lot of time to get time to spare you know, my my real concern and anxiety I guess, is not so much you know, am I going to get COVID-19 in Am I going to survive it if I get it and you know, that that is what happened or not. And what will happen with that will be what it is and what is not and I I’m pretty much at peace with that. Um, but I am kind of concerned over what’s, what’s going to happen on the other side of this Hmm, you know, not just to the wider society, but to the Christian, you know, to, to, to my people. Yeah. Because there have been some very helpful things that you’re already seeing, and there’s some, perhaps unhelpful things that you’re already seeing. Right, you know, the the best and the worst of our nature, actually. And both of those things are on display. And and it’s just going to be interesting to see how that plays out on the other side of this.

Yeah, and I think that that brings up a good point, because it, it allows for us maybe right now to to recognize that this is an opportunity for the church, to really be the church and to really shine. Right. And it also then means it’s an opportunity for us for to stick our foot in our mouth to,

you know, have more resources, then, you know, the third century Christians did and yeah, or Rome, right? Certainly. We’re also in a very different social position, though, from that, too, which is, which is so true, which is interesting. So, so I, I know that some of my people, because they’re my people, one thing I really try not to do is, even if I personally have some issues, that folks, you know, my fellow believers do to not try to disassociate myself from them. Because, you know, I’m one of them. I yeah.

And that’s good, because it’s easy to be like, Oh, I just want to distance myself. Sure, for sure. And

I just, I just don’t want to go there, because it’s not true, because they don’t like people. But at the same time, my people are doing some things that are not helpful. And my people are doing some things that are helpful. Yeah. So my people are seeing ways that they can not only, you know, Minister to those in their own congregations, but perhaps, you know, really care about the common good. And maybe we can actually talk about that a little bit more later on the podcast, because I think that’s really interesting. And very Christian concept that that is talked about a lot, even with questions of whether I should keep my church open or not. Right. Yeah. And, and so, you know, I see the best of it, but then I also see and I know, it’s, you know, it’s not all the pagans out there that are doing this, it’s my people that are going out and hoarding. Right, you know, it’s my people. Those is the best of the worst, you know, and and, and I understand that because my people are people and people do it, we’ll do what people do, when they’re under this kind of pressure, right? You just hope that redeemed people would at least think, you know, think twice about it before they just read on while the toilet paper. Right?

Exactly. I know. I mean, literally, toilet paper has gone on forever. And that I really liked that because it helps us understand that in the in a moment of scarcity in the moment of a pandemic, we can, we can actually choose as a church to to have a mindset that’s different than everyone else, right. But it is it is tough, because we are people and we have moments of panic and moments of it is unnerving. You go to a store and there’s literally no toilet paper. Even though I wasn’t going there to buy toilet paper at all. I was still like, maybe we should buy toilet paper, hardly any ice cream either. That’s really infant now Hey, what’s going on with the ice cream hoarders? People have deep freezes?

Well, honestly. I mean, I know people that have gone to Home Depot and Lowe’s and it’s like, you know, within the first couple of days of a possible shutdown, that people would just, I mean, literally, they cleaned out those places of freezers that you right now it’s just like,

Yeah, and it’s and it’s really interesting, too, to have to battle that within ourselves as a church of saying, hey, this, this is not a time just for me to to hoard and protect, but I can take care of myself and look to take care of other people and I have this. It’s actually a quote from Martin Luther, who his city of Edinburg was also going through an outbreak of the bubonic plague in the mid 16th century, early 16th century about 1527. And a fellow pastor going to ask him, Hey, how should we respond? How should I handle this situation? And this is luthers response, which I think is great. He says, I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. So Luther saying, first off, I’m just gonna ask God, please protect us. Then I shall fumigate help purify the air, administer medicine and take it. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance inflict and pollute others. And so caused their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, He will surely find me. And that’s kind of what you’re saying, Rex, like, if it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen. And I have done what he has expected of me. And so I’m not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. And I like what he says here. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person that will go freely as stated above. See, this is such a God fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy, and does not tempt God. That is an amazing quote. Yeah, there’s so so fitting a friend from church sent that to me, and I was like, wow, that just perfectly fits. Because, yeah, I think response we can have right away is one to pray, like, hey, God, would you protect us? Would you protect our city, protect our friends or family? And then also do our part of, of sanitizing everything? and

social distance? Right. Yeah. maintaining social distance to do that for the, for the common good, actually, which is right, which is interesting, right?

Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s the way to, I love how how Luther helps us understand that it is that it’s actually for the good of others to to do those. So,

you know, and the church in the in the third century, it’s like, we don’t just take care of our own, we take care of you all too, right? And so, if the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the healing that we can do is going to also be for everybody. Yeah. And that’s a wonderful thing.

And I think like what you were saying Rex, too, we do need to in this time, it can be easy. And sometimes on a podcast, it’s easy to kind of highlight how the church gets it wrong. Right, we got focused, but but I do think that it is important to and we can recognize that and say, hey, that’s like we, we are Christians, these are people, but we disagree. So we can recognize those moments. But I do think it is important for us to recognize to the countless churches who are looking for their neighbors and are doing it in a responsible way. It’s not just about holding Sunday services. I think that’s, that’s what’s really interesting about these last couple of weeks, is that it I think it’s helping the church realize churches so much more than a Sunday service.

And more than that, it’s so much more than a Sunday service in a specific location that you have a moment. Yeah, I do wonder I you know, I mean, I am very cognizant of the financial implications of all of this and everything, and I, and that, and I think those things are really important. But, um, you know, we all know, and I’m pretty sure all of our listeners know, too, that the church is not a building, this is becoming very, very evident. And this is also sort of forcing us to actually have you have to confront that. If I can’t physically go down with my, you know, with my fellow believers and worship in our place at a specific time together. And that’s church, like I go to church, right. And I know, because I’ve been taught in Sunday school that the church is actually the body of Christ. Right. Yeah, we know the right answer. We know the right answers. But now it’s like, well, you know, this is where those right answers have to have you have to pay pay attention to these right answers. And I’m finding that that that’s a very good thing. Yeah. And it’s a thing a lot of us are struggling with and struggling The best way to do that. Yep. But But, you know, if, if it’s a real appreciation and discovery of what the church really is, I cannot possibly be anything but a good thing.

Yeah. That it’s it’s helping us realize the things we already knew that church isn’t a building a single location.

Now, I can say that since I actually, you know, I’m not a pastor. Yeah, that’s true. I did pastor for nine years back in the day, I might have a different, you know, set of concerns. Yeah. But if I was just concerned about the building, that would be totally understandable, but you don’t want the real lessons to be missed. When this you know, and we could come out of this actually in a much better place. Yeah, really good.

I really, I really think we will. And even at the church community that I’m a part of, I’ve seen people actually grow closer together in connection because they’ve had to reach out to each other via social media, writing letters to each other phone calls. And, and it’s actually maybe connected people more than just having a physical location where you go, and and i think that it is, when we are on the other side of this. I think as a church, we’re going to need to be mindful For that, we don’t fall back into that same rhythm, right? Just going to a location and then being like, Hey, I’m a part of this community, but actually being a part diving in, connecting with people, and, and then also looking out for those around us, right. So now, it’s not just the church in church locations have been doing great. I know, even from our community, there’s like a food drop off, that’s been happening once a week, or a food handout. And other churches are doing really well at that. But I think this is also helping us realize that in my own home, isolated from everyone, I can then be the church so I can look for my neighbor, who is a widow, and and in her 80s. And I can ask her, Hey, do you need me to go to the grocery store for you? Or do you need me to pick up anything or the mom across the street who is like, if you see Ritz crackers, pick them up, because I can’t find them anywhere. And my two year old only eats Ritz crackers. And, and that’s a way for us to, to connect and help and, and I think that’s the way during this during this pandemic man for the church to really show who we are. And and maybe this is helping us kind of reorient our focus and and, and get a better grasp on what is truly important. And I agree with you if we come out of this on the other end, with a better set of priorities, and a better understanding of what’s really important. man that’s only good for the church. It’s only good for our nation and our culture. Right. I totally agree with you. I want to I think we can kind of maybe land Rex on on looking at this word, hope. And this idea of hope because I think during this time, for me, it’s been a word I keep coming back to, like, what does it mean to have hope and I’ve always loved this quote from Henry now and, and every now and again. I’ve said it on the podcast for He’s like, my number one spiritual writer of all time. He you know, in heaven, I want to be like, Jesus. Awesome. Where’s Henry? Can we talk? I need to talk about some of these books. He didn’t line right. Yeah, exactly. No, there probably be a long line number. But you have all the time in the world. Yeah, but we got time we got to. So but I love this. He always he does this comparison between optimism and hope, and how they’re different. And it’s, it’s so it’s been so just impactful. In my own life. He says this, he says optimism and hope are radically different attitudes. optimism is the expectation that things like the weather, human relationships, the economy, the political situation, a global pandemic, I’m adding that, and so on will get better. Hope is the trust that God will fulfill God’s promises to us in a way that leads us to true freedom. The optimist speaks about concrete changes in the future. The person of hope lives in the moment with the knowledge and trust that all of life is in good hands. That’s really good stuff. And I love that idea that it’s easy in the middle of a of a pandemic to think about the future, right? A one day it’ll get better. One day, we’ll be back to normal. And and you can almost live kind of paralyzed. You’re thinking about how it used to be in the past. And you’re thinking about how it’s going to get better in the future. But God is calling us to live in the present. Right. Right and live with hope in the present moment. And of Christ in the present. Yeah, so I just think it’s so important. It’s something I’ve been focusing on. Man How can I not miss this present moment, not just thinking about the future but man that God is in control all of life is in good hands, no matter what happens. And and I can focus on that. Yeah. Rex, thank you for joining me on the show.

Yeah, I have a question before we before we go, okay. Yeah, like I used to come zoom yet, Mark. Oh, man.

I am I am. today. crick in my neck. Actually. Exactly. I am. I think one thing that might happen to me after this is I may live the rest of my life just on zoom. I may just only zoom into places I’ll never actually leave my house. Yeah. You know, as an introvert, there’s kind of positives and negatives to experience. Right? I’m not afraid like I’m not itching to get out and meet people. But what I’ve also noticed is that, as an introvert now stuck at home with everyone like their introvert has no place to hide. Right?

So now the introvert has to become the extrovert because they’re the only ones there to talk to. there’s a there’s a real life A lot of our stuff that probably is really necessary is happening right now. Right? If we’ll just take advantage of the moment that, you know,

God has given us.

Yeah, right. Yeah. So yeah, let’s take advantage of that moment and thank the listeners for tuning in. We hope you all stay safe. And we’ll see you again. We’re a marker across town from each other right now. Exactly. We got way more than six feet between us. That’s right. You guys. Stay safe out there. We’ll see you again soon. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

If you’re interested in learning more about Jessup, please visit us at William Jessup is the premier fully accredited four year Christian University in the Sacramento area offering over 60 academic programs in undergraduate and graduate studies designed to see every student equipped and transformed into the leader they are called to be as you go Don’t forget to hit subscribe and share so you never miss an episode. Thanks for joining us for Jessup Think.

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