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Sacrilege & Silence

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
Sacrilege & Silence

In this episode, host Mark Moore, Auxiliary Professor of New Testament and Theology, is joined by the director of the Theatre program Derek Martin & Assistant Professor of New Testament and Theology Matthew Godshall. They explore the question, are cultural artifacts (i.e. films, television shows, books, etc.) that mention God in a bad or even sacrilegious way less dangerous than artifacts that do not mention God at all? Some “family-friendly” artifacts may actually cause more harm than good by excluding God all together.


Hey, welcome to Jessup think I’m your host, Mark Moore. And today on the show, I’m joined by two of my esteemed colleagues. Here. Jessup, Matthew, gotcha. Matthew, won’t you speak a little bit about what you teach here?

Sure. Thanks, Mark. I don’t know about a steamed but definitely. That’s kind. I teach New Testament and theology courses. I’m actually the lead faculty for theology degree, to teach in historical theology, some comparative theology, but also getting stained in the New Testament with Romans and revelation and survey courses as well.

Perfect. Perfect. So we got theologian on board today, on board and then also joined by Derrick Martin. Derek, what do you do here?

You know, I’m the head of the theater program here at Jessup. I teach primarily the theology of the arts and faith in arts courses, as well as things like directing and Shakespeare some other stuff there I kind of vision cast for the program. I’m the functional leader. I don’t know if I’d go status, because there’s quite a few people that have a big say and how we move forward. But right, yeah, functionally, I think I’m ahead of the theater.

That’s great. And it’s been doing so well, the show’s been going great. And it’s been really good for the university. So and I’m just excited to have you both on the show. So we got two theologians and an actor. That’s right. They there are two theologians and actor to Japan, right? Yeah, walk into a bar leading us into something. But really, what I want to kind of talk about today is how cultural artifacts approach God, how they talk about God. And when I say cultural artifacts, I mean, books, movies, music, plays, even plays in cultural artifacts, and how they, how they talk about God, how they view God, how they express gun, and have a particular kind of question. And that question is, are cultural artifacts that mentioned God, even in a profane light, right, even in a light that would make us extremely uncomfortable, maybe even angry, are artifacts that do that, more or less dangerous than cultural artifacts that don’t mention God at all, that are silent on God. And I bring this up because I had an English professor in undergrad and full disclosure as an English undergrad, Major. So I moved, I saw the light and I moved to theology in my grad school years. But I was English and writing undergrad and my favorite English professor. I remember one semester, she was kind of receiving a lot of complaints about the books we were reading, you know, these works of mid 20th century American literature, and, and just the topics they were dealing with some unsavory topics, how they were presenting God, and I’ll never forget her response to those complaints. She first responded by looking at Mark seven, which Mark seven is a passage that talks about where Jesus talking about what really defiles us, and it’s not from what is on the outside, going in food we eat, maybe, conversations we have, but it’s actually from within what defiles us so she’s trying to maybe help students that, you know, it’s already happening within our hearts. And she went from there to make the claim that artifacts that actually that worry her the most are artifacts that don’t mention God that are silent on God. What do you what do you think about her argument there? That artifacts that are silent for her artifacts that are silent are more dangerous than artifacts that that deal with God even in a wrong or profane light? Yeah,

um, I it’s kind of an interesting question. Because I think if you go to the source creator, if you go to God, he does not create using god. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I would I would argue, I don’t believe you have to use God at all for God to be present. Nice. I like that. I like that. And and vice versa. When some you know, because you go sometimes you do mention God, but it’s it isn’t always in the greatest light. Right? Right. Yet a sunset speaks so much of the mystery and beauty of God and who he is as a creator. And and yet there’s, there’s no cross. There’s no word of God and a sunset or anything. But yet it’s undeniable, from my perspective, that God is certainly there and present in the sunset.

So there’s a sense in which beauty in and of itself can pop can point to God, whether that’s beauty and sunset or beauty in the arts or whatever artifact we’re considering. So there’s something there. Yeah, that in and of itself, there’s something inherent, that maybe we have devised to see. Maybe, maybe there’s something even more in and of itself intrinsic that can point us to God. But I think there it makes it Yeah. Like what you’re saying to Eric about, in and of itself, there’s some value in the beauty.

Yeah, and that, and there’s, I think for, for me approaching it to it is, there’s a tension within maybe the Christian artists, that is, we have to mention God in every song, every movie has to come back to a crisis point and someone. And so there’s this stress to that. And and so for me approaching this, I agree with you that it’s like, okay, it doesn’t mean what I think what her argument does not mean is that every artifact needs to mention God, specifically by name, in that, and I think that’s a really good point to bring up because it is seems to be a really tension within the Christian world, in our artists, and maybe the pressures we put on our artists to, to mention God. I think one of the things that I think of when, when kind of listening to her argument, and what I noticed is maybe taking it away from from books and literature, do they make books anymore? Do they? Do they print those? I don’t think so. Yeah, I don’t know. I, I tried to describe them to my students and like their paper and they’re bound, you can hold them in your hand and read them, you know, my students are like, No, ma’am. No idea what you’re talking about. So maybe even going from that to, I think it’s interesting, like, if you look at our kind of network sitcoms that are kind of geared towards family geared towards a wide audience. Many of them don’t mention God or religion at all. And, and I’ve always found that interesting. That they don’t, and there’s kind of this wide viewership, and we can talk about them and chat about them. But they kind of paint a picture of life. Without God, they kind of paint a picture of even the good life, maybe a group of friends who are supporting each other, hang out, and, and to me, just with no mention of God, or religion, even in a negative light. I feel like oh, wow, yeah. Are they painting a picture? That that allows us to view reality? Hey, God doesn’t have to be part of the picture.

Yeah, I think that’s fascinating. I’m not actually thought of it that way. But it can be that subtle portrayal of this is, what matters is the here and now in the moment, where I can see what I can experience with the senses. And obviously, relationships are a significant part of that. And those are good. But yeah, you’re right, they can portray a godless world in those short stories, which then can imply or even shape our imaginations to think, all right, I can, I can live all right, without God, or I just need these things. And I’ll be happy, I’ll be satisfied in my life will have meaning. So yeah, that’s an interesting way of looking at it to be subtle. But it writes, it’s in that kind of subtleness that can have that profound kind of imagination shaping effect on how we how we see the world. And so that’s an interesting perspective. Yeah.

And those are often artifacts, that within the church, we kind of welcome on because they’re kind of middle of the road don’t make too many claims. One or the other, so they’re not offensive. But then one thing that I’m fascinated by is that so many of our, and I’ll put it in air quotes for the listener, so many of our adult cartoons, because that’s the thing they’re cartoons for adults. So many of our adult cartoon shows like Simpsons family, Guy southpark they deal directly with God, often, oftentimes God is a character on the show. Yeah, that’s right. And and I’ve found that fascinating there. What do you think our our cartoons are more apt to talk about God? Talk about religion, where some of maybe our other artifacts are a little silent, maybe not wanting to offend a larger audience?

Yeah, well, actually, it’s two things one on the one on the last but I’ll I’ll go with this one. First. I think cartoons deal with there really is no boundary. physic The world doesn’t have a physical boundary, right? That what the characters can actually do don’t. So they are able to explore metaphysical ideas in a way that a human physical being on a show can’t even with CG, right? the limitations of the human are still there, right? Whereas cartoons aren’t. So it’s interesting. The other side of it is our adult cartoons are almost entirely satire. Right? And so they’re actually good point. They’re literally looking at issues that we are dealing with in life and commenting on it both negatively and positively. I think all of those cartoons you mentioned, both comment negatively and positively about God. Yeah, I agree. It’s kind of interesting, because they won’t completely add in some more I Funny enough, I think South Park’s the most fascinating because I think they are, you know, they, they’re they’ve kind of got their thing like the elephant everybody, right? There’s no hold on no boundary, there’s no boundaries. But also they’re very fair. Yeah, like you don’t see them leaning one way or another of any of the groups, they don’t lean any particular direction. So you really are getting kind of what is going on in people’s mind right now. That can be satire, you know what they’re what they’re speaking to,

I think that’s a good point. It’s the reflecting not so much on God as revealed in the Scriptures, but caricatures of God, ideas of God pop popular views of God that are out there, that actually may not even be consistent with what the Scriptures tell us about, about God. So they actually can expose some of our own kind of wrong thinking about God in humorous, shocking, and kind of profound ways that I think can be helpful for us.

Yeah, one of my it was on a Simpsons episode. And Homer has skipped Sunday morning service, which is also again, fascinating, like the church plays a big part in The Simpsons like, life of the church, then going to church getting the whole family. And Homer has decided to skip Sunday mornings to watch football. footballs on Homer is sitting there watching football, and God reaches down with his hand and rips the roof off of the house. And he comes into the room, right? And here’s a large guy with a big long white hair white beard. And, and he kind of kind of condemns Homer a little bit like Homer, why are you forsaking my house of worship? And Homer is honest with him? He’s like, Oh, no, I don’t want to go, you know, footballs on and and then there’s a really interesting part where God walks in and sits down on the couch next to Homer. Yeah. And this goes, You know, I understand. He’s like, sometimes the, it’s boring for me as well. And it’s just this really interesting picture of God. Yeah, that is, you know, obviously, when we first see really well depicting God coming in condemning, but then having him sit on the couch and have this conversation with Homer. Even if he’s saying things that we wouldn’t normally think God would say, like, you know, yeah, I would skip to because it’s been boring, and who’s winning the game type of thing. But it kind of was like, okay, they’re dealing with God. Yeah, they’re dealing with how God relates to us. And maybe questions that we have about God and, and church and, and the relation there as well. A lot of times, I love Derek that he pointed out with these that they are satire, right. So they’re, their goal is to examine culture, and to make comments about it and to point out in consistencies to point out, and and they’re often able to do that, because they’re not afraid to offend. Yeah. And, and, and it’s really interesting to see that and, and I think as Christians, we have to be able to maybe view those artifacts and learn from them. Yeah, right. Like, hey, Well, okay, what what are they trying to say about God? What are they trying to say about the church? I mean, often, I think most of the satire deals with God, but it’s through the lens of the church, and through the lens of how maybe God has portrayed the church. And and so we need to be able to, to receive that satire. also need to be able to laugh at ourselves, right? Like we can, I think, just laugh, laugh with ourselves and laugh at ourselves. Sometimes,

I think something that I know and talking more art generally, but certainly this would go under the camp of artistry and cultural artifacts, a lot of that would be artistic in nature, right? Is is understanding something that I think gets misunderstood sometimes by Christians and churches and Christian audiences. Is what arts about. Art fundamentally is about humanity, because it’s literally everything is filtered through the human mind to right now, the impulse to create, I think, is divine. And it was given to us by God. But I think you’d be mistaken to think there’s no, there’s no perfect work of art, because it’s all filtered through the human mind and the human understanding. And so I think you’re going to run it, we run into issues with consistencies and stuff like that. So I think what you’re saying is, would be great to be open minded and look for the gold is actually more beneficial. Because oftentimes, there’s, there’s actually a lot of gold out there, right? It’s just kind of, you just got to look for it. It’s hidden. And there’s a lot of other junk out there, too. Right. Right. We got it, you got to kind of keep your eyes open like that there is truth in some of these satires. Yeah, that we can learn about the church or ourselves, right, you know, in relationship with God.

And that doesn’t mean we have to accept all the junk that goes along with the gold, right. But I like that I like that imagery. I’m searching for those, those nuggets of gold that that teach us about? For one, they might just teach us how culture views us. Yeah, how culture views and it’s so important to know that like to know, hey, if a lot of our cultural artifacts are, are viewing the church as judgmental and closed and not not a safe place to go to find out about God, and as the church, we need to know that,

especially the idea of God is judgmental, right. I mean, is kind of his go to or default position that does seem to be kind of a broad cultural impression of God. Where does that come from? Well, it’s because of his people genuine generally act and that reflect that. Um, so I think that’s a good connection. It’s, it’s, it’s exposing us. And you’re right. We don’t accept every all the critique, but should be humble enough to receive. Yeah, some of the critique for sure.

Well, that might be good. Maybe a way to approach it is these different satires on God, or views of God not view them through the lens of I can’t believe they’re saying about God, he’s not like that. But rather, Oh, wow. Is that how we’ve presented? So actually, maybe they’re making a comment about us? As as image bearers of That’s right. Yes. I think that’s insightful. Yeah. How can we learn from that? To to represent him better? Yeah, knowing that no matter the best, we could represent them, there’s still going to be like, artifacts that don’t agree. Sure. And they’re still but our representation will never be perfect either. Right, exactly. Well, I don’t know about yours, but mine. Well, okay. That’s what I’m the.

I’m the artist. I’m not the Theologian, but remember that right, so I’m a little further.

Exactly, yeah. Sorry, you do have a long way to go. I keep hearing that. Telling me I want to kind of maybe move from that into the music world. And I’ve got some lyrics of a song that I want to read to you. And it’s a song by a guy named Sam Smith. So current artists, and and Sam when he know his background, he’s when you listen to his songs, he’s had some connection with the church, right? He’s had some connection with the church. And you can also tell that he’s had some hurt associated with that. And, and in the midst of his last album that he released, there’s a song called pray. And right away when I see things like that, I’m like, well, light bulbs are going off sirens on my way to Saget. He just said, Pray, like well, I, you know, I, I tuned in, like I want to hear, partly because I teach a class here at Jessup called scripture and pop culture. And so I’m always looking for artifacts to bring into class. And I’m always encouraging the students like when you hear a reference to God, when you hear a reference to a spiritual practice of praying or that like, tune in, like, what is what is what is going on. And so I actually want to start with the just going into the second verse, but the first burst, he just talks about, Hey, I’m young, and I’m foolish, I’ve made bad choices. I’ve blocked out the news. I’m also turned my back on religion like, but I’m also at a place now where I’m just kind of empty and and overwhelmed by what’s going on in the world. And so the chorus is, maybe I’ll pray. Okay, it is kind of a last resort moment. What’s the Kind of desperation of man, I have nowhere else to go, maybe I will pray. And and the second verse, he says this, he says, says you won’t find me in church, or reading the Bible. But I’m still here and I’m still your disciple. I’m down on my knees. I’m begging you, please. I’m alone, broken and afraid. And I’m not a saint. I’m actually more of a sinner. I don’t want to lose, but I fear for the winners. And when do I try to explain the words run away? That’s why maybe I’ll pray. Hmm. And when I heard that line is like, wow, that there’s so much going on there. Now, when we can initially hear it, we’re saying, oh, he’s not in church, what he didn’t pray, well read the Bible. And obviously, those things are very good things strike one, like going to church reading the Bible. Those are good things. I’m okay with it. I support you. And, and to see, for me, what was interesting was the, maybe the disconnect from that too, but I’m still here, and I’m still trying to seek you. And, and that, like, being a light of, Hey, this is someone in our culture, who’s maybe separated God from church from Scripture, but is still trying to have a relationship with God is still in a point of desperation of saying, Man, I think I will pray. Yeah. And well, how can we hear that and not maybe judge right away? No. But say, Man, I, let’s have a conversation. I would love to, to talk about that, you know, and seeing and so, for me artifacts, when you read that, or you hear that, how does

this artifact strike you? Yeah, that’s mixed. first thought that came to mind is NT, right? That tells a story of when he was he was working at Oxford. Some Chaplin, right. I don’t remember exact context. But he was, he would meet with students. And his first year students It sounded like and they would come in and say, Well, this is probably the only time you’ll ever see me. I think it must have been required for them to come in one time. And he goes, why is that? And they say, Well, I don’t believe in God. So I won’t be. Don’t care too much for what you’re offering. And his response was on tell me the God tell me about the god you don’t believe in? Who is this God you don’t believe in? And they would he According to him, they talk about this God? They don’t believe in Yeah, he would say Actually, I don’t believe in that kind of gun. That’s either in a kind of then created that bridge to he would connect obviously to Christ, the guy who reveals himself in Jesus and all that, but but I thought that question was profound. Because there is that sense of, we assume the definition of God. Yeah. But the reality is a lot of us have very different meanings to that word, right. And so part of the conversation with this artists, I think, could be, who is this God? you’re praying to your grind out to let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s just talk there. What is, what do you envision this God to be? And I think someone like this could teach me to has a lot to say about this honesty, before God that, you know, sometimes, especially in the world of New Testament studies, or I feel like, you know, I’ve got I don’t have all the answers, right. I’m right. I’m right before students and you get paid. Yeah, that’s right. I don’t I’m job security. I’m in trouble. So there is that, you know, you could suddenly fall into that, like, I got this thing figured out, but you hear this and there’s some the honesty, and the humility. Yeah, it’s actually really refreshing. Something I feel like I need to hear Yeah, myself. Yeah. And sometimes it does come down to I don’t have you figured out, I’m just gonna pray. Yeah, right. Right. But what else do we have some times because as much as I think I could have it in my head, good, good theology, it all fits together. And on the day, that can be just as much idolatry as something else. So we need to be we need to take that posture, even for us who are followers of Christ.

Yeah. And that, that question from NT rise. So good. I want to repeat that again, because that is gold. The idea that tell me more about the god you don’t believe in? God? I think that’s a question that we could pose to our culture. Yeah. And so these artifacts that are talking about a god they don’t believe in, it might be helpful to know. Yeah, Hey, tell me about that. God you don’t believe in because I love that contrast, because I probably We don’t believe in that God either. Yeah, that’s right. We have common ground now. Yes. Right, we’re on this news. And maybe let me tell you about the god I believe in. Right? That’s, that’s maybe different from that you can, you can apply that to to different areas like, you know, tell me about the church that you don’t believe in or go to. That’s right. And what are those, and hopefully, we can stress, hey, we know that those type of experiences happen. And, man, the church is also not perfect, and, and is growing and drying and that there are, there are good men and women out there who are following Christ, who are trying to live that out, and, and trying to make those connections with them without such such a good quote from minty right on. And I really think that’s what, how we approach culture. Yeah, that’s really kind of a good approach of

Tell me more about it’s almost that idea of listening. Brian Yeah. And then they don’t do that. Well, when it comes to these artifacts or songs. I’m usually a little more inclined to be more judgmental, but I think, think there’s that, what can I learn first, that should be our posture? One understand to what can this teach me? And then if critique is appropriate, then we can go there. But let’s listen because something like the lyrics she read. There’s some it’s beautiful on one level, because, right, that’s, it’s the honest reflection of someone’s heart, which actually would probably resonate with so many. Right, in our context today.

Well, I think that, you know, I totally agree. And I think that posture of, of listening is something where you, when I’ve talked to other artists, especially those who don’t believe, you know, that they have a very different picture of God and of Christianity. Right, right. Very frequently. I mean, I think the arts world is one of the most untouched by the church kind of in our current in America. Yeah. And, and they have very much pictures of what that life is supposed to look like. But then you have the reality of what we’re talking about, right? We’d love to, but that listening, from what I’ve heard people say is listening isn’t often the first response. Right? from a lot of people in that, what I what I go, when I look at that is I go, Wow, what’s fascinating about what he wrote there is, you know, there might be this idea that well, the world, the world’s going to hell in a handbasket right now, right. Oh, my gosh, and I’m going well, but you have somebody who doesn’t professed to believe who’s sitting here talking about, they have nowhere else to go but prayer, right. I’m like that, that kind of speaks the opposite. The world isn’t all necessarily. There’s there’s options, there’s people are actually thinking about things that are deeper and bigger than themselves. If we’re, if we’re paying attention,

right, yeah. And I think that’s the, for me, the big takeaway, I think, from the conversation is, is having that posture of listening? Yeah, first, right. Obviously, adding critique when it needs to be adding contrast when it needs to be have. And I think a lot of that contrast is, or maybe the critique is, hey, that’s actually not the God we believe in either. Right? So it’s, it’s a critique, but it’s a point of connection. There’s like, Hey, we, we don’t believe in that type of God either. This is but but yeah, having that posture of listening, hearing them, and, and also maybe then having a posture on artifacts that don’t mention God at all, maybe being a little more skeptical. And like, Wait a second, again, not forcing every article here every artifact to to have God. But when you see one, that doesn’t mean like, hmm, is there anything going on? That That is why they are being silent, is there more and, and again, listening there as well. They’re listening and, and then learning from that, and then presenting Christ to our culture, right.

And I also think that, to that, I’d be like in listening really, to the whole work into the whole body and maybe to the artists body of work. Sometimes we know sometimes we pick out a singular work and like this, this person’s terror, this artist, you know, blah, blah, blah, but you go in, but if you look at the body of work, you get much better picture of the artist as a whole in their perspective. And this is what Francis Schaefer was talking about. All right, as you can’t judge on one thing, you can’t judge an entire group of art or or an artist based on one artifact. It’s good because how many times have we created something that then you know, later down the road? I’m like, Yeah, I probably would rethink that concept or recap. I kind of imagine it But, but sometimes that happens.

Yeah, I mean, it’s just like, our own scriptures do that. Right. You couldn’t pull out one of the Psalms that is more of the conservative or complaining against God and be like, I can’t believe this psalmist wrote, darkness is my only friend. Right? Yeah. What terrible theology? Yeah, that’s right. That’s a picture of a moment. Right? Right. He’s having an it’s an honest moment. And that’s why I love the book of Psalms because it shows all of these honest moment. Yeah, being able to cry out to God, being able to praise God, who he is, but also that freedom to say, hey, God, where have you been? Like, I’ve been looking for you.

Yeah, it seems to be that some of the artifacts you’re mentioning earlier. That’s the heart cries. We, there’s a longing for God. Yes. This he’s not or this God hasn’t shown up, and is not doing what I expect. This God to do, which is this. You’re right. It resonates with the solomos quite a bit. It’s that lament that many people naturally like the artists, the lyric, Sam, Sam Smith. Yeah. That’s what he’s kind of. He’s that’s a very sound like,

lyric. Yeah. And I think I think the other thing is about stuff that doesn’t mention God. Sometimes I feel like we maybe maybe we aren’t listening deep enough to some of that stuff, too. Because maybe it is. Right, right. I mean, it you know, when we read the similar in Psalms, the sky is proclaim has, you know, the glory of God, the, you know, start plants handiwork. Right, you’re going like, but but you have to really be listening to hear the proclamation to, you know, you have to be paying attention to can’t take it in. And so sometimes, there’s, there’s truth there. It may not be overt. Right, be subverted, right. And then it gets into like, Can a can a non Christian create a Christian work of art? That’s, that’s a great question. You know, and I would think, like, well, Episode Two, that’s Episode Two. Yeah, cliffhanger.

No, that’s such a good. Yeah. That’s such a great question. Right. Right. Yeah. The truth being there. And, and there does seem to be within the the Christian community, sometimes this dress for the overt, right, and to see an art that subvert and be able to listen to,

and, and find that our response sometimes to sin, it’s like, we oftentimes are quick to deal with the overt visible, Sam, where things like pride or you know, fear and things like that are living in really deeply in a person’s life. But, you know, you know, I’m not there’s no judgment. I mean, that right? Trying to figure it all out. Yeah, there’s no clean cut easy answer to any of this stuff, you know?

Sorry, Mark was married. But Reza, oh, wait, wait, wait. We’re supposed to have all the answers. Where we’re, we’re in the theology world. And young man’s Can I retract my strike that from now, but thank you guys, for joining me today. I think this is such a good conversation. And I think it just helps us frame, how we engage with culture, how we engage with cultural artifacts. And I think having that posture of listening, and listening to what’s going on below the surface, even listening in artifacts that don’t mention God overtly. No one’s listening for what our culture is saying. telling us about that God they don’t believe in and and being able to paint this picture of a God who’s entirely different. I think that’s such a gift, actually, that the church has right now. So thank you guys. Alright, we’re gonna move to a segment that I like to call nerdy Would you rather. So if you have you heard of Would you rather maybe played that game in high school? But this is the nerdy edition. So it was appropriate? Yeah. So Matt, we’re going to start with you. So have a question and you have to answer the question, then you also have to tell me why. I need I need some explanation. Okay. Again, this is nerdy, would you rather. So Matt, would you rather have dinner with Peter or Paul? I go with Paul. Okay.

Because Paul would probably just talk the whole time. Yeah, I think he would conversation would just be him and I would just enjoy hearing him talk, Peter. It seems like it’d be a little more work on my part to keep that conversation going. I

have to sometimes Peter would strike me as like the crazier one. True.

But yeah, guess what Peter may feel more comfortable eating. Like not worried about appearance with butter or something like Yeah,

that’s true. I thought of that though. But with Peter, they would probably be no bacon. So So that would be that’s where it pushed me to Paul. Well, I guess that actually fits me too. Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Maybe you would like, I guess I’m maybe I’m changing my mind. So Peter, and we’ll switch to like, Paul, as a high likelihood that you’d be in prison having your meal together to say that I’d bring bringing him Yeah, the meal eating it in real prison. Yeah, like the glass, or whatever. Yeah. However, that works to iron bars. Maybe they didn’t have Plexiglas? Probably not. All right, Derek, you’re not off the hook. You don’t want to hear from me. So I tried to make it, you know, maybe distinct to your to your background. Or maybe just in maybe the acting world. So would you rather have dinner with Bogart? Or Kaplan? Oh, Chaplin.

Oh, really got a doubt. I like bogey. Don’t get me wrong. Right. Right. Right. But I think Chaplin’s fascinating. That is true. Yeah, that would be a very specific dinner. Because he was known for doing upwards of 150 takes of each time he he saw action. Well, of each scene. He did upwards of 150 takes the average is about between four and eight takes. Yeah, you know, sometimes he would do 150 takes a beat so it’d be a very specific dinner.

Probably. Yeah. Who knows? very lengthy, very lengthy dinner for repetitive Yeah. Can we do it again?

Exactly. I think he’s just just what he was doing at his time is what he did for the art of filmmaking and comedy. Was was I just be so fascinated to sit down and have dinner with him. I think he would be an interesting

yet. That’s so cool. I’m, I’m really drawn to Bogart just because if my if my life could look like Casablanca, like, literally Yeah, well, maybe minus like the World War. Yeah. My life could look like manga Blanca. I would. I would I would sign up for that. That’s good. Oh, well, yeah. I can get the white tux. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If Yeah, if I could look like bogey. I think that’d be a different question, though. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn’t be chaplet. Navi Chapman, although I did just find out that bogey had a hairpiece the whole time during Casa Blanca. You know, which is I appreciate that.

Yeah, he did. And he had really bad stomach issues, which is why you see him when you see him off and he like wipes his the sides of his lips. It’s because he was removing the calcium carbonate. Tums? Oh, yeah. Cuz it relates that he would be using regularly. He was wiping off his face.

Awesome. Well, thank you guys for playing along with me. Yeah. And now we know we actually I think Matt was able to switch you Yeah, that’s from Paul does Peter. Wow. No one, you know, be less meat involved with Peter. But Peter would be a pretty quick eat though. I

feel like he’d like scarf it down.

Immediately they went somewhere else. I love it. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

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