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Read More, Watch Less

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
Read More, Watch Less

Brian Lucas, founder of Adams Avenue Bookstore, sits down with Mark to discuss the importance of reading well. This episode looks to inspire us to put down the remote and pick up a book now then to truly feed our souls. The pair will discuss views of CS Lewis and Dorothy Sayers on this topic. Mark will also reveal a very interesting connection in the opening section of the show.


All right. Well, welcome to Jessup. Think and I’m your host, Mark Moore. And I could not be more excited to have my good friend on the show, Professor of Greek is CS Lewis, Master, German scholar, Brian Luke is Brian, thanks for being on the show today.

It’s a pleasure and you’ve already gone over the top.

Yeah, I’ve already you know, I’ve said too much already. I’ve said too much. But how long have you been with Jessup? Brian,

this is this is my 12th. Year. Okay, you’re right. Yeah, I was 19 2007 that I started. adjunct thing and also working in running the bookstore back then, when Jessup had the bookstore on campus. Okay. Yeah, that’s great. and nice. campus was about, I think, a fourth of the students that we currently have.

Right? Yeah, it’s grown so much in these 12 years. Yeah, it’s been, I’ve been nine years now. Here. And yeah, just I mean, it’s growing every year. It’s really great to be a part of that. And, you know, it’s interesting, you brought up that you worked with the bookstore here, because I want to kind of start with a story that I think is I think, is really interesting, if I do say so myself about my story that I haven’t said yet. But but it was in 2001. I moved from the beautiful state of Indiana. cornfields as far as the eye could see breathtaking sunsets, because you could actually see the sunset. I’m over the horizon. I moved from there to a to a slightly, maybe a slightly more beautiful city in San Diego, California. Some may, some may say it’s more beautiful than Indiana. I’m, I’m on the edge there. I like them both. But I moved there to go to grad school, and also to work at a church. And while I was working at the church in the college group, some of the students knew I was going to school knew I was, you know, academically minded. So they were like, Hey, you have to check out this bookstore that we just found. And I was like, Yeah, I’d love I mean, I loved old books, ever since I was a kid I loved collecting old things even and just in and we use books and, and so went with them and quickly fell in love with this bookstore called Adams Avenue bookstore in, in San Diego. And it was so amazing is that it appeared at first to be just a just kind of a normal used bookstore, with, you know, shelves of fiction and art history and some cookbooks, some travel books, a couple of cats roaming around. And then I went upstairs and entered this magical world of theology and biblical studies and spirituality. And it was just a it was the largest section or selection of used books in theology and bib studies, and, and spirituality that I had seen in any used bookstore that I’ve been in before. And so I just quickly fell in love with it, it became still is my favorite bookstore of all time. Fast forward. A few years, I’ve moved back to after grad school, moved back to Indiana for a little bit, then came to Sacramento in 2008. I started teaching here in 2010. And that’s where I met you, Brian met here on campus. So we will you know, we can ask the audience. We have never met each other before William Jessup universe. That’s right. There was no connection. There’s no connection beyond that. But when we were talking just in that one, a couple of first conversations we had just getting to know each other. You mentioned that you lived in San Diego, and that you own a bookstore in San Diego, they own a bookstore in San Diego. And I asked you Oh yeah, what was your bookstore name? And when you said, Adams Avenue bookstore, I swear, fireworks went off in the background. And it was just such an amazing connection that I was meeting, the founder and the owner of literally my favorite bookstore of all time, my I, I would patronize you with compliments anyway, just because you’re a guest on the show. But that’s not i’m not patronizing here. It literally was my favorite bookstore of all time, and have way too many books on my shelf that came from from your store, and it was just so cool to meet to meet you. And I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you got started with the bookstore down in San Diego and what maybe your love for, for books have been in your life.

I appreciate that. Of course, the the end of that has come as we as we know, just last summer, I spent the summer in San Diego having to close the store down after 32 years. Wow. 32 years, but it was in the it was in the late 1980s. And I’d wanted to go into business for myself for quite a while I’ve been exploring that. And and I’d always been interested in reading and in books and in working with people. And and having a bookstore seemed to me The more I thought about it and talk to people to be a good way to be able to do both of those things at the same time. Yeah, so it was about a two or three year process of getting ready talking to people I traveled talk to as many dealers as I could and and we purchased the existing store in in one of the older communities east of downtown San Diego, that had already been there since 1965. So I’m actually that I was actually the third owner of the of the store. And our hope had been to not just create a bookstore, but create a place and environment for people to interact with each other and to connect with the best books that we could provide. So I mean, as you said, was a general store, people would come in and buy a science fiction book or cookbook or ARB, we had a lot of children’s and young adult books. That was one of our largest sections that did very well. But we our focus ultimately was on scholarly material. Part of that was our audience, you know, in San Diego with numerous universities, San Diego State and UCSD and USD and private colleges, Christian and non Christian, we’re all around us. And so over the years, we had a very great and close relationship with academic students and faculty and staff of all these institutions. So that was for me, very, very enjoyable. That was a great opportunity.

Yeah, that’s so great. And how did you how did you go about kind of amassing such a great selection of biblical studies and theology? How did you how did you get those books?

Well, when we, when we started, the there was only one floor. And when we started the books, okay, and then we have the two storey building, and then we subsequently about two or three years later, had access to the person leasing the building allowed us to occupy the entire phone to the second floor. So and at that point, there was like two shelves about three feet wide was the total Biblical Studies in religion section. So but our that was our commitment to, over a long period of time, really developed the best store we could in scholarly areas at the center of humanities education, so that we had a great and, you know, we really worked for a long time in our history area of American history, ancient and medieval history of theology, Western philosophy, you know, religious studies in general, plus our Christian theology and Biblical Studies.

Yeah, well, you did perfectly on your you hit your goal, because you really did develop a place that was a community and where you could come and get good quality, scholarly works. When I was in grad school, I got several of my textbooks through their books that I was using for my master’s thesis. I got some older, kind of even more like, first print ish, almost or first edition from you that were on this special back shelf that were protected from the general population. Southwestern, yeah, they were clustered on their own. And, you know, I had a little bit of a little bit of money I could throw towards books, you know, maybe it was borrowed money that I’m paying back now. But in my mind, you know, it was it was went to a good cause. Yeah, good, cause but it was just your great and it was just amazing.

Yeah. You know, another thing that comes to my mind is in terms of what drew me toward it, and and that that was the fact that I had the sense of, at that time of being a bookseller of joining a guild, you know, at that point, books essentially, were still sold, bought and sold the same way they had been for hundreds of years. Right. And, you know, the book community there was a real community. The booksellers association was an active group, we met monthly, you know, there was maybe 25 to 30 of us that would meet monthly It was a wild and quirky group, you know, but a great a great experience. And I really treasure that and over the years and the changes of the culture and the business community, everything they’re almost all gone in the in the book as a community now the booksellers that’s pretty well fallen to the wayside unfortunately. But for quite a while, that was a lively and really stimulating group to be a part of.

Yeah. And I think it’s important for us to, to kind of, maybe examine the changes that have happened in culture, particularly regarding books and how we get books and the community, we’re in reading books together, I think it’s important for us to, to, to examine that and, and to know, maybe like, hey, here are some changes that haven’t been the best, some some ease of access, and those things with technology have been good. And I can grab a bunch of different books that I couldn’t before now, just on my iPad, but I think it’s also one of the reason why I wanted to bring it on the show is just kind of talk about that importance of books, and maybe even the importance of holding something in your hand, and reading and how that influences us. And how it helps us as as a human race and how it is really important. And I hope today, we can kind of just inspire a love for the love for books, and particularly a mix between new books and old books that we’re we’re kind of reading both of those. And when I was in college, I read an article from CS Lewis, and it’s actually his introduction to Athanasius is on the incarnation. And when I read it had completely changed the way I viewed reading, and the way I viewed what books I was selecting to read. I’ll be I can, I can be honest here, I think we were good enough friends that I can be honest, that when I was actually younger, I wasn’t much of a reader. And it’s kind of mirrors. I know, I mean, some kids today who are like nine, and they’ve read every word of Harry Potter, and I’m like, That is amazing. I wasn’t much of a reader. And it wasn’t until college that I started to kind of late High School into college, that I that I started to develop a love for reading and then it became this decision, right of Okay, what should I read. And when I read this article, he talked about how we can’t get caught up in just reading the new books. If we get caught up in just reading the new books, we’re gonna miss the perspective. And like the time tested values of these older books, and actually, I just want to read a little bit of this article. To you, I’m actually that’s I’m working on my other podcasts, it’s on the side, and I’m just gonna read CS Lewis, and it’s just gonna be a podcast of me reading CS Lewis. But that’s a different you know, that’s, it’ll just be maybe that could be our podcast together, we can call it you know, the Louis hour or something. But this, in the introduction, I love how he phrases this. He says there’s a strange idea of broad that in every subject, the ancient books should be read only by the professionals, and that the amateur should contend himself with modern books. Thus, I have found as a tutor in English literature that if the average student wants to find out something about platonism, the very last thing he thinks of doing is to take a translation of Plato off the library shelf and read the symposium. He would rather read some dreary, modern book 10 times as long, all about isms and influence, and only once and 12 pages telling him what Plato actually said. The error is rather an amiable one for it springs from humility, right, like, and I think lewis is saying, There we, we sometimes fear like, well, I can’t read Plato. I’m not I’m not gonna know what he’s talking about. He’s too. He’s too high above me. So I read someone else, but I love how he notes like, and I think that still in currently for us, we often think about that, like, oh, the older the classics. That’s for the professor to read. And then I may read someone who’s telling me about them. And and Lewis goes on in the article to highlight, modern books are still on trial. They haven’t stood the test of time, and even put himself in that category. And he notes He’s like, well, I’m a writer myself. So I still hope people read Marty. But that we would gauge it with ancient books as well. And he actually gives, he gives kind of a formula. He says, You should read at least one old book to every three new books that you read. And I know you’re familiar with this article, too. What’s your take on on Lewis? Hear?

Yeah, I love I love the article, and I’m glad that you that you brought it up. You know, I think he does two main things in in that article. The first is, you know, as you’re addressing the importance of our education and even just our own private reading, focusing on the on the original works, the original texts, which tend to be, as heaped says, typically better Britain. Right and, and, and more welcoming to us and we tend to, we tend to think that they’re going to be off putting or that we won’t understand them. I think the concern also that he’s raising there indirectly is that so much of our education today, and certainly much more than when he wrote the article is from secondary literature, right, you know, it’s very, it’s very common now in, you know, education well up into, you know, college and even beyond, that people studying very seldom, really are reading extent, whole works of the original text, right. And increasingly, we’re relying upon, you know, secondary and tertiary works to do that. And, and, and yet the other thing that that you also hinted at, which I think is the second emphasis of the article, is his his take that one of the things that reading older books gives us his vantage point, you know, we need a place to stand apart from where we are in terms of our points of view and our assumptions and all the rest of it, in order to evaluate who we really are and what we’re, we’re going individually and culturally and whatever. And, and the only way we can do that he says only two possibilities, the future in the past, while the future is not on the table, yet. We don’t have those books. That’s right. So the only place we can go is to the to the past. And you know, he’s very straightforward. It’s not a matter that people in the past were smarter or anything like that, right. They just during particular historical periods are in different cultures or times, they operated from a different set of assumptions. They didn’t share views that to us, we take for granted. And he says that’s they made mistakes, just like we do, but different ones. The key thing that we have to see that we can get into some of these other worlds, both in fiction, and poetry, and history, and all kinds of texts, and realize that we can begin to see ourselves through the eyes of somebody else. And in his, in his literary book experiment in criticism, he talks about that, specifically the that when we read through another author like that, and he’s speaking there of the great books of poetry and literature, then the great gain is that we we see and feel what they see and feel, right, we come at our lives from a different vantage point. And I think he saw a huge value to that. And I certainly would agree with that.

Yeah, I love the way he brings that up that idea that we have in the modern world, we have our blind spots that we just can’t see. And when you read ancient books, they had blind spots, they just have different ones. Yeah. So they Yeah, they’re able to help us understand our time, because they’re looking at things in a completely different way.

Yeah. And, yeah, and one of the frightening things and he that what he brings up as well, this is one of the things that we would find out perhaps is that, you know, for instance, in our time, and our just debates and arguments with people that we think we share nothing in common with, hmm, that actually, when we get outside of our time and read earlier literature, we probably are going to find that, that we have a lot more in common with them than we would often like to admit. Yeah, so where our intellectual roots come from,

right, that’s so good that I think it’s such a good benefit of, of reading older and in within the think within the church to like within kind of contemporary Christian spirituality, we can get really caught up in just reading the current devotional style words. And, and those are good and they serve a purpose. Amen. And if I ever write one like that, I hope you buy it. You’ll be the first customer, right? But we also put it on my wish list. But we also need to, to tackle those deeper works of theology and the ancient works so that they, you know, and and just a lot of times within, I think the current church, we don’t get those works. We may get them through other people. But yeah, it’d be great if we would. And I love what what Lewis says about that. This is right at the end of his article, and I’ve often said this to my classes. But Brian, if you have, if you have any say or choice and what goes on my tombstone, like if you’re, you’re in that conversation, I want you to, you know, bring up this quote and just be like, Hey Mark, at one point, brought up this quote. But Lewis says this as for my own part, I tend to find the doctrinal books more often more helpful in devotion than the devotional books. And I rather suspect that the same experience may await many others. I believe that many who find that nothing happens when they sit down or kneel down to a book of devotion, would find that the heart sings unbidden, while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. And there’s just such a good picture of, of Louis, and, and that that difference of having older weightier books that can help us with the current devotional books that help us connect, but it may also just be one side of a relationship. And I love how Lewis reminds us to bring in those, and he uses the word as well conversation,

you know, that when we pick up a book that that was written 1015 2025 years ago, and we’re, we’re reading the debates, and, and some of the questions that are being asked, and the reasons behind some of the arguments, you know, can be difficult for us to understand, because we have we forget that that’s part of a conversation that was going on long before, right, you know, and the terms may change over the centuries, and the issues change. But so, you know, we’re entering into a to a debate or conversation that may be centuries old. And and without the context of the earlier works, you know, we can really be lost or misunderstand what’s, you know, what’s really at issue with maybe not even being aware of it?

Right? Yeah. And that’s just a reminder to us that we are entering a conversation that has been going on, for centuries, for millennia. And, and it’s important for us to be aware of what has been said, so that we know maybe why people are bringing up questions now, or the direction we’re going it so important. In the article lewis is listing some contemporary authors, you know, he says, Hey, we need to balance like a Gustin and Aquinas, with neighbor, or himself. And he also brings up Dorothy Sayers. And I know you and I’ve talked before about she has an article that’s pretty similar. Yeah. And this what is what is kind of her take on how old books play a role in our

formation, that her article, I think, is an entitled or lost tools of learning. And that’s a great, yeah, it’s a great title. And that really tells what the article is about she goes in a little bit different direction, I think she’s got, you know, different fish to fry in a way than than Louis does, specifically. But, uh, her concern at the root of her article is that, that she sees and had a fear now, this is decades ago, you know, this is written, we’re, we’re educating people without teaching them how to be educated. No, we’re not giving them the tools that they need, at the appropriate ages. Yeah, of students, young boys and girls, in order to be able, as they grow and mature, to continue to learn on their own. And so her article is, is in a sense, a, and she uses the model, you know, for her argument as to put over against what she sees currently happening, the medieval approach to education, you know, that right, focuses essentially on the initial education of boys and girls being to give them the tools of being able to learn and the on the understanding and study of what we call subjects, you know, history and other things would come at a later time. Ryan, it’s a very quite a different orientation to the way we see it. And she

was a really interesting character.

She was a character, you know, she is she was a good friend of a lot of the Inklings and Lewis and she corresponded quite a bit and, and she’s a great model for education, I think, because she wasn’t, in a sense, really an academic in the way that we would think of it. She had a great interest for instance, in Dante, and and so so much so that she learned she on her own Yeah, medieval Italian Okay, so she could read Dante in the weekend, probably yes. And and further because because of her passion, she ended up reaching the level of competence that she Get a translation of all three volumes of the Divine Comedy, and groped a number of subsequent articles that that have been published in academic journals on Dante’s work. It’s really, she said, to me, a fantastic example of someone at a passion, you know, just dedicated themselves to that area of study. Yeah,

that’s so great. And well, yeah, what’s her maybe in her influence of Dante and stuff kind of, for me, maybe brings up I look back in my life and think, man, what have been some books that have influenced me that really grabbed hold of, of my imagination grabbed hold of my curiosity. But I want to throw that out to you or there’s some there’s some books that you can look back to in life and say, Man, when I was introduced to this, it really drew me into the world of reading.

Well, for me, reading came serious reading reading of substance came fairly late from for me as well certainly wasn’t part of mine. So we were hanging out part of my high school experience more likely, but so it, it’s something that came along a little bit later, unfortunately, that happened, I guess, you could say, but, um, you know, in from college on, I mean, I had a great interest that developed out of my college experience in, in European literature. You know, my focus of study was Russian and Eastern European studies then in this is in the 60s, so, so it was a different world. And I was in Japan. So my head, my head, then, and continued to have a great interest in Russian literature and both 19th century classic stuff. And then some of my one of my favorite, or most important 20th century Russian writers is Vasily Grossman, not very well known writer, but a phenomenal Jewish writer, mid 20th century. And so I enjoyed that. That’s really what opened the door for me and led to a reading it got me to reading more poetry, one of the authors, I got to know through that my study was a Polish poured, of course, I’d never heard of before, they mean a wash, who ended up coming to defected and ended up living in the United States and taught at Berkeley, Cal Berkeley for probably 25 years. Wow. But his writings on poetry and on the political scene, in Eastern Europe, then in, in the, under the communist regime, it’s one of the intriguing things for me, the lines between literature and politics broke down in ways that are very different from our culture. And in Czechoslovakia, or the Czech Republic, after the communists were finally finally left, elected for president, a writer, a dramatist was you know, lots of hobble very unusual right of event, you know, so I can the interest there continues for me. Yeah, that’s

so great. That’s I mean, and I love when we can get together and we talk about the books we’re currently reading and, and ones that are influencing us. For me, a couple of books that influenced me the most came from Adams Avenue bookstore, when I picked up a copy of Henry now and solitude, and it just drew me into that world of spiritual formation and an A, in a Christian spirituality that that I was longing for. Right, and one that had the disciplines as a focus, and one that had spiritual growth as a focus. And I just remember, I still have those, those copies and I love what I love about getting the used bookstore copy Is that it? It was from the 70s, and a great 70s cover. And whatever was happening in the art world in the early 70s, was happening on on that cover. That’s right. And so and then even some bond comm books that I was introduced to him in grad school and never been introduced to him before. And at Adams Avenue, I found this little section that had five or six bond comm works and have one right here in the studio with me, which has still has my Adams Avenue

bookmark in it. He was he was an author that passed through the shelves often for a number of years. So yeah, and so

it was, you know, so thank you for, for stocking the shelves in for.

I mean, remember Louis was an important author, right to connect with and because not only for himself as wonderful as that’s been, and maybe I value him even more as a doorway into other great books. You know, I mean, I first read him in 1971 mirror I came across Mere Christianity, I only knew his name, I really hadn’t read anything of his, which which was a had a huge impact on me. And, and so I’ve been reading him ever since then. And he led me to to other people that I’ve also subsequently, and there I can see their life giving people to me. Yeah, you know, and one of them is George MacDonald, who is a 19th century Scottish writer who I started to read a year later 1971 72 only because of the reference in that I came across in Louis Right. And then the third that and they all connect to me, um, is the early 20th century Catholic writer, a Gk Chesterton, who Lewis referred to, and who he read Chesterton, even while he was still an atheist. And while Lewis was still an atheist, right and considered, I think he made a reference one time specifically he called Chesterton. This was when he was an atheist, one of the wisest people he’d ever read. Wow. And, and Chesterton has had a huge impact. I think his book Orthodoxy is one of the great books I’ve ever read.

Yeah, that’s so good. That’s such a good connection with Louis and McDonald and Chesterton. I actually just got to read. Georgia McDonald’s, the princess and kurti over over break, read that and look forward to diving more into McDonald and it is amazing to see his influence on Louis before Lewis was a Christian. Yeah. And and the his love for McDonald and even says in that article, the Athanasius article that he tried to deny or ignore McDonald’s Christianity. Yeah, as he read him, yeah. But then he got to a point where he couldn’t and Donald becomes a great guide for him.

I can’t say he read McDonald’s the rest of his life. It’s really interesting. Because Chesterton and, and McDonald and some others, Lewis resisted them, you know, of violently for a number of years, he fought against them, because at that point, he was an atheist. And he referred to their Christianity as he enjoyed their books. And he appreciated them as writers, but he hated the older. He used that terminology, that terminology that he saw that he experienced when he read their books. And, and, and then, and this is the other important thing connecting back to old books. Yeah, he had his feet, one of his main fields, obviously, was most of the English syllabus, you know, that went back to the earliest English writings, and even even beyond that to the Greek and Latin stuff, which was also an area of his study. Right. And, and he, he talked about the fact that he was began to be overwhelmed, because all of the great writers that he read and studied, it turned out that almost all were believers. Yeah, we’re a Christian. It’s just, you know, going on from from, you know, the first century on and at a certain point, I mean, it just began to be overwhelming for

Yeah, that’s such such a good point to make that that is actually in lewis’s own reading of old books. That’s right. To faith, to, to recognize that, and that’s, you know, one of the reasons why as we kind of wrap up here, and Brian, one of the reasons I wanted you on the show is, is just to maybe spark in people that that interest or love for man, I want to read more, and I want to maybe pick up an older book, and read and get into maybe some older Louis, or get into some other writers get into George MacDonald, if you want

to reach out get into Homer.

All right, yeah, let’s, let’s, let’s take it out of the all time greats. And usually when when I think people and maybe this happens a lot around the, you know, first of the year, and you make new year’s resolutions, like I’m gonna maybe watch less Netflix, and I’m gonna read more, and then you end up not doing that after January. But I think one of the reasons why people sometimes get see reading as a daunting thing even because because different people’s personalities Connect, some people can sit down and read a book for an hour or two hours and have no problem. Other people need more movement. But I heard this, and I won’t kind of finish on this. There’s just someone who kind of recognized if you just read just for 15 minutes a day, they noted the amount of books you could work through in a year, just by reading 15 minutes a day, you can get maybe, you know, seven to 10 pages, and you could get 100 pages within almost 100 pages within that week. And if you just did that, like it would just kind of give you that taste of reading in and too often I think we want to read and we want to love that. But we feel like I don’t have the time and I would just encourage people like carve out 15 minutes, set a timer and start there and I think once you once you start to develop that habit and you’ll get you’ll get drawn in it. And then you’ll be spending all your money at Adams Avenue store.

And the thing to the thing there, too, that we’re looking for is reading for pleasure. You know, which is something for a lot of people. And it’s sad that it’s so they never, that’s something they never experience. So you know, if someone wants to, you know, to follow your scheme, you know, and try to read a little bit every day, read what you like, you know, and my sense is if you read what you like, and just do it a little bit each day that I think you’ll find at the end of six months, or you’ll be reading more than 15 writers, it’ll be something that you’re drawn into. Yeah, you’re reading worthwhile and enjoyable material.

So great. Well, thanks again for being on the show. This is inspired me to go out and read today, even so, I’m gonna pull out some old books from the show. And don’t miss class. Yeah, exactly. I’ll still have to do my other responsibilities. But But thank you for that. And as we as we kind of wrap it up, I just have one more, you know, it’s kind of a later, you know, a second episode, our section whom we’re moving in a segment. I just have, you know, I’ve asked people on the show different questions at the end, Ryan. So we’ll move into I kind of, I think I know what you would answer, but I’ve already said too much. So you know, and so this closing segment I’ve been calling nerdy Would you rather? So it’s kind of like the game would you rather Would you rather go to Paris? Or would you rather go to London, right, would you? But this is the nerdy edition? Maybe I should call it the scholarly edition. That sounds better the scholarly Yeah, that’s better. But would you rather Would you rather have dinner with CS Lewis, or talking? If you had to pick you had to pick you couldn’t like set it on an inkling meeting?

I would I would probably opt for for Louis, only because I’m maybe more familiar with this work. And the other. The other thing would be although I love I enjoy thoroughly and love reading Tolkien’s material and Lord of the Rings is a fabulous write. masterpiece. But the thing with Louis is, is I think, as a conversationalist, he everything that I’ve read, you know, letters and biographies and stuff. He was he’s a masterful conversationalist. And he read very widely, he wrote in all kinds of genres of work. And, and he loved to debate, you know, he loved to engage. Yeah. And I think I think for that reason, it would be a wonderful experience.

And again, I’ve said this before to other guests, but I would love to be a fly on the wall and hear that conversation between you two. never regret. Well, thanks again for being on the show. Thank you very much and read well, out there. Thank you very much, Mark. The pleasure. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

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