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New Testament Authors & the Hebrew Scriptures

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
New Testament Authors & the Hebrew Scriptures

In this episode Mark is joined by Assistant Professor of Hebrew Scriptures Libby Backfish to explore how we should approach New Testament authors use of the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly prophetic messages. The New Testament authors appear to be reading the Hebrew Scriptures in new and “out-of-context” ways. Libby helps us understand the meaning of fulfillment as well as the near and far nature of prophecy.


Welcome to Jessup think I’m your host, Mark Moore. And today on the show, I’m delighted to be joined by another member of our faculty of theology, Libby Backfish. So happy to be here. Thank you. Good to have you. And Libby wants to take a moment just to tell the listeners what subjects you teach here and what your research focuses. Yeah, so

I teach Old Testament subjects, I get to teach the freshmen intro courses I teach. Hebrew, I teach classes on certain books of the Bible. I’m teaching Isaiah right now, which is a lot of fun. I’ll be teaching judges Joshua Ruth next semester. But my research my dissertation doctoral research was actually on the Psalms. I love Hebrew poetry. Yeah. And I looked specifically at how those Hebrew poems were translated in the Greek translation of the Septuagint. And how certain poetic features such as wordplay were rendered into another language. So I got to play with the Hebrew and the Greek and look at the poetry and then of course, look at all that rich theology of how God presents himself in Psalms.

That’s so good, that’s so good. And then it’s gonna be so helpful for today for a conversation, because we really want to kind of look at because it’s gonna deal with both kind of Greek and Hebrew, right? And we really want to look at how the New Testament authors are using the Old Testament. And that spans really the whole of the Old Testament, right from the Psalms to the Prophet, specifically, the prophets will kind of highlight. But before we get kind of into that, I did have a question for you. Do you prefer the Old Testament or the Hebrew Scripture?

Well, I think there I use different terms for different contexts. When I’m in an academic context where there are Jewish and agnostic. Scholars, I usually say Hebrew Bible, it’s more of a neutral term. But as a Christian, I usually say Old Testament, it’s what the church is used to,

right residents are used to, and I teach New Testament class. And I often tell my students, you know, by calling one Old Testament and New Testament is not meaning one is bad. One is good, right? It’s not Oh, that one’s old. I want the new one. Now, I have proposed that we change it a little. So I don’t know if this will catch on now. So I propose that we keep New Testament. But if we change the old testament to like, the vintage test, Oh, that sounds very hipster. Yeah. readers. I could read the New Testament. But what about the vintage test? I like that. I think Zondervan could run with this. And we could have a vintage testaments do it by Christmas, we can do that. But no, but I agree, I also understand the wanting to broaden that focus of and actually maybe narrow our focus actually, on the original context of the Old Testament, right? reminding ourselves that this is the scriptures of the Hebrew people. Right, like, and I think that’s helpful by by noting, Hebrew Bible, or by noting, you know, the scriptures of Israel like this, this helps us remind ourselves that, hey, this isn’t just like part one of the Bible that is leather bound.

And it wasn’t written directly to us, one of the mantras I say in my class is that the Bible was written for us, but it was not written to us, the old or the New Testament, which is why we need to get into that context and understand how those original readers and listeners would have

heard it. Yeah, it’s so important. And I stress that to a New Testament. And, and I kind of stress it as this is why we we gently force you to take these classes, right? Because because we need to because it wasn’t written for us, it is for us, but it wasn’t written to us I like that and and we have to understand this original context and what then that actually creates a bigger meaning for us now, right? Like when you understand that, and I think that’s going to be the same for understanding how the Hebrew Scriptures have influenced the New Testament. It’s you know, when when I tell the students this and New Testament all the time to really understand the New Testament you have to understand the Hebrew Scripture. I’m so glad you tell your students testament now I do tell them there’s a whole lot more reading in the Hebrew Scripture. So I you know, I take pride in that that in the New Testament, like hey, we’re shorter here. Like we can read your the easy class, we can get this Hey, now easy. I don’t know if I would say that. No, but but it’s, it’s helpful. Because when you read the New Testament, you see so many, either direct quotations or illusions, echoes, we’ll bring that up later. You see those? And and if you don’t have a framework, they just go right by you.

Yeah, even just the themes and the concepts like covenant law, right? All these ideas that would have been so understandable to the New Testament writers. We have to go back to the Old Testament and see what are those ideas they’re pulling on and building on?

Yeah, and now in sometimes when When I’ve kind of traced down those old testament, or Hebrew Scripture, quotations or allusions, when you get to the original context, it kind of seems different. You’re like, Oh, wait, like, what does this mean? Like this isn’t? Maybe I’ve seen where Matthews coming from, but there’s also this whole other context. And and so we’re really want to kind of focus in on that, you know, maybe because sometimes that’s a charge against or a complaint against the New Testament writers that they’re taking it out of context, that they’re being maybe opportunistic or haphazard with how they use Hebrew Scriptures. And and sometimes, I mean, not, not too many, maybe Christians do the work of actually looking up the the reference. But when you do, it can bring up questions like, sure. And what does the author doing here? When you kind of approach this topic? Where do you begin, like, how do you start to understand how the New Testament writers are going to be using Yeah, prescription?

Yeah, and specifically, we’re talking about prophecy. I try to bring up the common misconception of how prophecy works. People often think that there’s one verse in the Old Testament that directly points to and only points to one fulfillment in the New Testament, right right here. It’s actually a lot bigger than that. So you brought up Matthew, and I’ve got a couple examples I like to use in glass. In Matthew quotes, Hosea 11. One and Hosea 11. Verse one says, When Israel was a child, I loved him and out of Egypt, I called my son and if you look that up in the whole context of Hosea, Jose is clearly talking about Israel, the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt in the exit and the exit, right, right. And if you have any question, verse two says, the more they were called, the more they went away, they kept sacrificing to the balls, and it keeps going to where it’s clearly talking about sinful Israel. But then you go to Matthew in chapter two, verse 15, when he’s talking about Joseph and Mary and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to get away from crazy King Herod, right. It says this was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet out of Egypt, I called my son. And so we’re kind of looking at Matthew, like, Matthew, Oh, come on, what are you doing? Right? Yeah, like, what’s the original content? And is that a legitimate use of Hosea, but what Matthew is doing is he isn’t saying Hosea 11, one was only talking about Jesus. He’s saying this established a pattern that was fulfilled, of course, in Israel, but it was also in most fully fulfilled in Jesus now. So he’s using it as a picture of what was happening in his experience there.

Yeah. Hey, is Richard Hayes out of Duke Divinity School, he kind of highlights that as figuring what is happening, right? It’s like a prefigure and it helps, then Matthews readers Connect, make that narrative connection, right? Like, hey, Jesus coming out of Egypt. Whoa, I’ve heard that before, right? Like this is the children of Israel coming out of Egypt. This is now this freedom from slavery, right? So he’s Matthews trying to connect all of these thoughts, all of these images are all of those patterns. I love that word pattern that are happening so that they can get this bigger picture. Yes, making

an analogy on of on the most important redemptive event that they know of in the Old Testament, right would have made a much stronger impact than if he just said, and they went there.

Right. Yeah. And then they went to Egypt, you know, and left it hit that, you know, and it was important. Yeah, he’s like, no, this is now. Now I think there’s also right and sometimes the misconception is to misread Hosea and say he’s only mentioning, you know, Jesus, at that time. But yeah, do you still think it’s fair for Matthew to make that connection? Because of what he’s trying to do trying to just broaden this connection of these two events and saying, Wow, look at how this connects.

Yeah, and this is what I try to encourage with my students, I try to remind them, I’m not trying to take away any of the so called Messianic prophecies from the Old Testament. But what I’m trying to do is write think and hope the New Testament writers are doing is not just looking at a handful of proof texts that point to Jesus, but I’m trying to look at the whole Old Testament is pointing to Jesus. And that’s what I see Jesus doing. And for example, in Luke 24, on the road to amaze, when two disciples are confused, and they’re wondering what is going on? We thought he was the Messiah and he died. And Jesus, though they don’t know what Jesus at the time, right explains to them not by using a few proof texts, but by showing them how all the prophets all the writings are pointing to him.

Yeah. And that’s the I mean, I see. And we see that claim all through the Gospels, right that, that Moses was writing about me, right when he says it, right that this is, and so yeah, for the New Testament writers to connect it. And I like you’re saying not just to proof texts, not just to Hey, look at these. It doesn’t. Now Matthew does a lot of bringing in kind of that fulfillment theme. He’s like, hey, look at this. Look at Jesus, right so we can really kind of deal with him. Yeah, it would be kind of we would miss Matthew, maybe the power of Matthew if we viewed it just as Matthew said. Hey, look at these verses. There’s a Jesus, I can’t believe you don’t believe this, that this is, you know, there’s a bigger story and there’s maybe a bigger purpose of what Matthew was trying to do. One thing that we see in Matthew is the use of Isaiah so much. And I know you’re teaching a class on Isaiah right now. So I wanted to kind of bring that up, like, for one kind of first question, why Isaiah, why why does Matthew rely and the other gospels to specifically Isaiah 40? They kind of a lot of time Mark starts with that. Right? And there’s this reference of good news within that Isaiah 40. But why is there as a whole, do you think the gospel writers really drawn to, to him?

Well, I think Isaiah was important within the Jewish community, we see it copied so much at Qumran, and it was an important text that they would have known and Isaiah speaks so much of those dual themes of judgment and hope and looking forward to a Messianic age. And so I think it was quite easy for the gospel writers to say, here’s the fulfillment, the ultimate fulfillment of those promises of that hope of that end of exile, that restoration that we see. And hey, by the way, all these figures foretold in Isaiah, be they kingly figures, or servant figures. They’re all ultimately, and most climactic Lee fulfilled in Jesus. Yeah, even though that may have been surprising for the original audience to be like, Whoa, you mean the king that was promised in Isaiah 11 is the same as the suffering servant and 5253. Whoa, we didn’t see that coming, right. Yep.

Yeah, like connecting dots, maybe was even in the text of Isaiah. And then connecting Yeah. And

then what’s interesting, too, you mentioned Richard Hayes, because I know Richard Hayes looks at Paul’s use of Isaiah. And Paul was less concerned with seeing Jesus and Isaiah and more concerned with seeing how Isaiah helps us understand ecclesiology and how the church functions now with the Gentiles being grafted into Israel. Yeah. So they’re both looking at Isaiah for different different reasons. Yeah,

Paul’s Paul’s trying to say like, hey, Gentiles coming in isn’t necessarily a brand new concept. In the plan, all right, yeah, that this fits in. And I think that’s what Yeah, the gospel writers seem to be doing the same thing like Jesus coming, and the Incarnation and all of that, isn’t this like wild, you turn right or left turn in the narrative, but that there’s been these kind of categories, or patterns that are built that are going to help them then maybe see Jesus as that fulfillment?

Yeah. But I think it’s important too, that when we look at how the New Testament writers are using Isaiah specifically, they’re not saying Jesus is the first and only fulfillment. Right, we make. One of my favorite theologians on this topic is Paul Wagner. And he has a really helpful analogy about a coffee cup being filled. So any intrigued already? Yes. If any listeners know Mark Moore, he has this awesome stainless steel coffee mug that he always carries around stuck to my hand. Yes. So imagine Mark Moore going to a really nice coffee shop and see this and they offer several coffees, and he doesn’t know what coffee he wants, and they’ve got like three or four? And they say, well, we’ll give you a taste of each one. Oh, no, it wouldn’t be good if they feel that coffee cup all the way to the top, because then you’d have four cups of coffee. Yeah, it would be over. So they give you just a taste, which is perfectly appropriate for the context. But then after you taste those four different than you choose, you know, I want to go with the dark roast and they feel it all the way to the top. Okay. And Paul Wagner says what a lot of times the New Testament writers are doing with these Old Testament prophecies or they’re recognizing that they were fulfilled in their old testament context, okay. And in a way that would have been appropriate and understandable to the original context. But then now in Jesus Christ, they’ve been filled up all the way. Okay, right. Oh, all the way up to the Yeah, like that full cup of coffee that you chose.

Yeah, no, that’s such a good illustration. For one now I want a cup of coffee. I have to stop the podcast and move on now. But but that is, yeah, that these tastes and now, the fulfillment in Christ isn’t a first and only fulfillment, but it is the most complete fulfillment. And that’s because yeah, when you read Matthew, like Matthew one, and he’s gonna be referencing Isaiah seven, which I now want to talk to you about. But he says it that way says all this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet right. And so I can see how sometimes you could read that sentence and think, Oh, this was just a predictive verse one to one correspondence, right dry. And and yeah, and thinking of fulfillment more in the lens of this is the most complete fulfillment, but it was fulfilled. And then we have that really familiar phrase, especially around maybe the holiday season, right? The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him a manual. Now in the original context, how should we understand that and Isaiah seven?

Yeah, I love bringing students to this passage because it illustrates this idea of filling up and patterning of prophecy so well. So if you look up Isaiah 714, it seems to be pointing directly to Jesus. Therefore the Lord himself will give you Sine and the U happens to be a he has who was a king of Judah and he was an unfaithful King. And the Lord is giving him a sign to buffer his strength and his faith and his trust the Lord because what’s happened is the northern kingdom and the Syrians have all coalition against Judah, the southern kingdom, and he has is literally shaking because of this political upheaval running in 735 BC, long time ago, right? And Isaiah is saying, No, here’s a sign that will show you that you can trust the Lord in the sign is that not a virgin actually a young maiden and

I did read that that the out of the Septuagint where we were just a virgin.

Yeah, and I’ll mention that in a minute. But he’s saying this young woman is pregnant right now not will be pregnant, the grammar is she is pregnant is and she’s going to give birth to a son and that young woman could have been Isaias wife could have been has his wife so the baby could have been has a Kaia. Right, it could have been just a random woman. But the point is that that child is going to bear the name God with us. And that should give a he has trust. Yeah, God because all throughout Isaiah, there’s this emphasis, trust the Lord, don’t trust other nations. Don’t trust a Syria don’t trust Egypt. And please do not trust yourself trust

point. And so maybe sums up the whole testament, right? Like, trust the Lord.

Yeah. And so in the context, clearly, it’s talking about a baby who knows what baby that was born in the seven hundreds BC. And then when Matthew says, after the angel of the Lord tells Joseph that Mary has not been fooling around, but she’s actually been impregnated by the Holy Spirit. And he says, No, this was actually to fulfill or literally to fill up into complete fill that cup of this prophecy saying Behold, the end here, he says, virgin shall give birth. Right? So what’s happened with that term, which in the Hebrew was just young maiden, and we know it’s just young maiden, because other places that word Alma is used, it’s used of a woman who’s had sex, but she just hasn’t had a baby yet. Gotcha. the Septuagint the Greek translation renders it with a word that by the time the gospel writers were writing meant virgin, okay, so it fits what Matthew was doing it early, because Mary, we believe literally was a virgin. Right, right. But 200 years prior, when the Septuagint was first translating that section, that word did not mean virgin. Yeah, young woman. So and this happens with language, right? Language evolves. So like, I like to give the example if my grandfather told my grandmother, hey, you look so pretty engaged today. Right? I would have just been telling her she looked pretty unhappy. Whereas right, if my husband tells me I look gay today, I’m gonna wonder if you were to divorce,

right? Yeah, like this. Yeah. Language and words are different. Yeah. different meaning. And, and it’s really interesting to note that about that word, you know, because that could I could see that being used, again, as a charge against Matthew, like, oh, that word didn’t even mean that maybe he’s changing. But he was a part of the change in language that was happening. And that was seeing that in the Septuagint. And seeing that change. And then for Matthew, he’s saying, whoa, hey, yeah, let’s connect this guy. Yeah. You know, I’m, I’m he’s doing nothing more than just pointing to the Septuagint translation, basically saying, hey, look, what’s happening here?

Look, not only does this fill the cup perfectly, but hey, this kind of chance evolution in language. Right, divine providence, right.

Yeah. This is that this is helping us understand this passage in Isaiah even more, yeah, and the fulfillment. And I think it’s helpful to, to make that distinction, that there is a an original context and even an original fulfillment of that child, right? That, especially noting the language that she is pregnant at the time, right? So Isaiah is writing about a contemporary. And it’s important to know that because that helps us maybe understand that these prophecies are not trying to be that one for one prediction. But it will be more retrospectively, the New Testament writer looking back at that original event, and the event of Jesus and saying, watch this connection, right, look at this connection. And that seems to be what Hayes harps on the most this idea that for him, the New Testament writers are being more retrospective than they Hebrew writer being kind of prospective. right then. And, and so he often uses a phrase called figural. Reading, right, reading those figures and noting these connections. Yeah. and and the the kind of the key there for him is that that type of reading of figure reading doesn’t presume that Isaiah is conscious of Acting of future Messiah or that, but rather, Matthew is using that to connect these two events and to show this wider kind of narrative that’s happening. I think that’s a helpful way to, to approach what, what Matthew is doing. Especially with with Isaiah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I want to be clear, too, that I’m not proposing that there’s that there’s not supernatural prophecy happening, right? It was giving a true prophecy of what no one else knew at that time. Right. And these prophecies were things that often happened in the future to confirm that their words from the Lord were true. So there’s definitely a supernatural element. They are telling God’s message. I’m not trying to downplay that at all. But often that message was relevant to the people in the immediate context.

Yeah, that’s what and I was talking to Cynthia about this, who’s also another Hebrew Bible professor here. And she was kind of stressing that at the profits were as, as diplomatic people, as servants of God, they were concerned with the present moment, you know, they were given God’s truth in the present. And that it that again, has supernatural prediction that, but it also was concerned with that time, and yeah, and and I think, again, it’s important, I think, sometimes we look at the Old Testament prophets, more through the lens of Nostradamus, and maybe what they were doing like this is someone just trying to write about something that they that isn’t connected to their time. But yeah, the prophets were speaking a message to their setting.

Yeah, they were fourth telling much more than more telling, even though they definitely were foretelling the test of a true prophet was whether or not their prophecies would come true. Yeah, often those prophecies were just to confirm that the words God was giving them were going to be true to them. And most of those words, the vast majority, were repent. Right. Or have hope, like Isaiah 40. And following have right, you know, judgment is over. And there’s restoration coming soon.

Yeah, that there’s some good news. Right, yeah. Literally gospel. Right. Yeah, literally. And that’s, that’s so cool that that mark really does that right away. Like he draws Isaiah 40. And even Paul does that in his writings, when Paul uses good news. He kind of references Isaiah 40. Well, this, this idea that, hey, this concept of good news, while it has Roman, you know, kind of has as Roman usage, right, and the good news that, hey, we have a new Emperor, and he’s going to provide all of these for us. There was also this Jewish understanding of from Isaiah of Hey, good news. Like, there will be a leader who will protect us, there will be and your way will be your salvation, and God will be with us. Yeah, God will be with us. And, and now then, for the New Testament writers to bring that in and say, hey, yeah, this is the good news. The good news that Jesus is here, this is the good news that fulfills Isaias longings and the good news that a Roman audience could understand as well. Yeah, we have this new king, this, this, this, this new Emperor who’s going to provide for us? And in that we have, we have hope? What are some other ways? So we’ve talked a little bit about kind of Old Testament prophecy? What are maybe some other ways that New Testament writers are using the Hebrew Scripture?

Well, yeah, and not just quotations and also echoes like Richard Hayes has talked about, but also I would, I would argue, too, that the New Testament writers saw Jesus not just as a Promised Messiah, but as Israel as the perfect Israel. And so we see this continuity between the world and how sin entered the world. And so God chose a nation of Israel, a particular nation for his plan of redemption. And then from that nation who couldn’t keep covenant, well, he, they look forward to an agent and Messiah. Yeah, someone could and Jesus stood there as perfect Israel. But in so doing, he then calls the church to be grafted on to Israel, who then are to extend that to the world. So we have this large scope of the world narrowing into Israel focused on a particular divine agent, and then again, extending out to include Israel, the church and then the world. So I think that’s one way of seeing continuity between the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I think one way that the New Testament looks back at the old

right Yeah, I like that stressing kind of Jesus as the new Israel, Jesus as as the faithful Israelite yes can fulfill the covenant keep the covenant light to the nation. Yeah, everything is real was called to do and be and yeah, and then expose that light To yeah everyone to the nation’s to the Gentiles and, and is interesting throughout the New Testament we see the church then struggled with that part, right? They kind of maybe started to see Jesus and then they started to be like, but hey, what does this mean for Jindo? Oh, interesting? Yeah. And that’s so it’s interesting you brought up that’s the way Paul then is like, No, no, this also right. So this is Jesus and he connects to the patterns, the Gentiles also connect to

it. So it’s easy to look back at Israel and think, Wow, you are so dense, didn’t you see you should have been a light to the nations and then the church. Right? Oh, dense?

nation, right? Yeah, I often tell the students I’m like, that’s not ever look back at them and point the finger. Because, you know, we want to look at what we’re doing and missing, right, missing God’s kingdom. And also, like you’re saying, missing that main kind of thrust of the Hebrew Scripture, and also the New Testament, which is, I am your God, I will save you trust in me, follow me, and we continually want to follow ourselves, or follow our own design are our own plans. And he kept reminding the Israelites now this is, this is me, I will be your salvation. And then with Jesus, he’s reminding the church now trust in me, right trust in me. And and yet so helpful. I think it’s, I think it’s just really helpful as we approach New Testament, for one, to get a better grasp of the Hebrew Scripture, right and to get a better grasp. But it also this has been really helpful to to know how then the the writers are using the Old Testament, and maybe to look for those, Tim Mackey, from the Bible project, he calls them hyperlinks, right? He’s like, this is a hyperlink back to a story, you got to click on that hyperlink, you have to click on it, because this is going to take you back. And and once you then actually learn the original context, it makes the the New Testament context that much more meaningful, right. And that really connects again with Hayes. And the idea of, of an echo, or are met ellipsis as well, this idea that you have two events that are flowing in, in the in the stream of time, right. And it’s not till after the second event, that maybe you can see the connection. And, and but to know the importance of the second event, you have to know the context and the importance of the first event. Yeah. And Matthew, and the other gospel writers are saying, Hey, remember that event?

Yeah. And if you can’t remember that event, if you didn’t read the first part of the story, you’re not going to get the fullest and Right, exactly, I like to you said one stream. And I like that analogy. I also like the analogy of a story. And I like to give an analogy in class about walking into a musical or an act in the middle, and missing the first part, right, you’re gonna miss a lot of the background in the context. So for example, we’re doing Beauty and the Beast at Jessup this semester. Yeah, so excited. Oh, excited. Now, if we walked in in the middle, and we saw Belle dancing with a beast, and they’re in love, and he’s sweet, we are going to miss the crux of the story.

I would have a lot of questions. Yes. I wonder what’s going on here.

And he started out horribly arrogant, right? She sacrificed so much for her father to be there trapped in the castle with him. And we would miss so much of that same way. If we just jump into the New Testament. Yeah, it’s great. We’ve got God coming in the flesh as Christ. But why did he even have to write you don’t have three quarters of the Bible to tell us just how deep our sin took us, and how impotent we were in saving ourselves. Right? We miss how awesome it is that God saved us through Jesus Christ.

Yeah, it’s so important. And I stress to students in the New Testament class. I mean, just showing them the Bible and showing them the difference. Like, hey, look, how much is the New Testament? And how much is the Hebrew Scripture? And if we miss that, and I think that oftentimes, like maybe Christians today are scared of the Old Testament, right? They’re kind of scared to get because they’ve maybe they’ve read or they’ve tried, you know, the Bible in a year and they get to Leviticus and you’re like, I’m done. Yeah, I can’t. Or maybe, you know, numbers is the final killer. Sometimes I think that that they get there and they, they, they they are afraid maybe of how does this Connect? And and so you know, that may be just another podcast episode where we can help help listeners approach like what are ways to approach the old testament to be able to begin to read it, to know how to read it, to then know, hey, how does this Connect? You know, and because you really can’t understand the New Testament without it and the New Testament writers are clear Merely expecting the readers to know or to be able to make that connection. And one thing like is interesting you brought up like going in in the middle of a play. I’m the type of person that I can just start a movie anywhere I can, like, just walk in on it. And then that intrigues me like that intrigues me like, Oh, I wonder like, and it makes me pay attention closer, and go so so hopefully, maybe people, as you’re reading the New Testament, maybe be intrigued. And now start looking up those old testament references, and start diving into commentaries and saying, hey, what, what is the original context? And, and not to say, Oh, so Matthew is wrong, and he gets an F on his exegetical paper, right? But to say, Man, what is that original context? And how does that help me understand what Matthew is doing even more.

And I do not want to downplay the difficulty of the Old Testament. It is hard, I’m an Old Testament scholar, and there are still parts of the Old Testament that are challenging, as I imagine there are parts of the New Testament that are still challenging for you. But I

am always going back and forth. I’m always going to the new testament to help myself better understand the old and I’m doing the same. Well. Yeah, no, and that’s a great point. And I often encourage people, students, and then people in the church, as they’re reading the Old Testament, to read it with the New Testament in mind, right, not separate them completely. And that’s good that it’s a back and forth. It’s both of them. Help to understand, you know, thank you so much for joining me today, tomorrow. And I’m excited for further conversation. Yes, about this topic, because there’s so much that’s interacting between New Testament and Old Testament. Thank you for your scholarship on this and just your attitude. Excited to be on the show. We’re going to actually finish today. You’re not through yet, though. We’re gonna finish today with a segment. And it’s a segment I like to call nerdy Would you rather? Okay, so it’s nerdy with you rather. And I didn’t give you any pre hints on this at all. So this isn’t new, but I’d like to kind of hear from our guests. Yeah, particular question. So I’m going to make it specific kind of to your and I have a two part question on that. But it’s a nerdy Would you rather Okay, I’m ready. So this is the nerdy dish. We could even say the Hebrew Bible edition. So would you rather have dinner with Isaiah? Or Jeremiah? Wow, I think Jeremiah might be a bit of a downer. Yeah. That’s true. He was, you know, wasn’t a real fun loving. He didn’t have a lot of fun stuff to write about, though. Yeah, it was pretty. Maybe not his. No, no. But he, I mean, he could have been like, kind of he or maybe, like, I know Isaiah better to say, Oh, well, that makes sense to like, you feel more comfortable. like you’d have more to talk about? Yeah. There were awkward moments. Yeah. Now for me, I I didn’t bring Zico into this conversation, because I feel like we have some questionable cooking practices happening. I’m glad you picked that up,

although I ran around naked in chapter 20. So I would have to have a caveat I not during chapter 20 not during those years,

not during the crazy years. Like that. All right, maybe a follow up to that, you know, just because because I think the major prophets, we hear those names a lot. And you know, in the church, even if we maybe haven’t read them or gotten into them, but we’ve heard them but maybe the Minor Prophets, you know, Nia, so so I’m thinking like, you know, rather maybe have let’s let’s change to a cup of coffee. Let’s say they like coffee. Yeah. Would you rather have a cup of coffee with mica or Zephaniah? Oh, probably mica. Mica. Yeah. Why? Why would you

contemporary advisor, so maybe we’d all hang out?

Oh, nice. The local Starbucks. Maybe? Yeah, maybe it would be there. Or maybe he’d be out on the street corner rolling around. I just like Miko What’s happening? Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s go Yeah, contemporary Isaiah. So again,

just that that time period is complex. In his message, he dealt a lot with social justice. And he also was looking forward to to a future restored time and yeah, right. Yeah.

I’d like to do more hope and more. Yeah, the restoration. That’s great. Well, I would love to, to be in the corner of that coffee house, just kind of watching this conversation happened, and we would invite you to our table. Oh, no, I would, I would just add closer and closer until you noticed me and then invited me in. Now. Thanks, Libby, for joining and I just loved our conversation. I think it’s gonna be really helpful for our listeners. Great. Well, thank you so much. Shalom, shalom. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by Leaving a review on iTunes. These reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup think.

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