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Love Matters More

Jessup Think
Jessup Think
Love Matters More

Author and cohost of the popular podcast Bible for Normal People, Jared Byas, joins Mark and Rex to discuss his new book Love Matters More: How Fighting to be Right Keeps Us from Loving Like Jesus.


Welcome to Jessup think I’m your host Mark Moore, and your co host, Rex Gurney. And Rex on the show today. So excited to sit down with Jared bias. He’s a co host of very popular podcast, the Bible for normal people. Also, the author of a book recently put out called Love Matters More, how fighting to be right keeps us from loving like Jesus. And it’s a conversation that’s going to talk about what it looks like to really love people more than wanting to be right. And in the proper place, maybe of love with truth and wisdom.

And it’s a conversation that’s really important, and one that I think our listeners will really enjoy. Yeah,

so hope you stay with us. And check out the book. Love matters more.

Well, Jared is really excited to have you on the show. And excited for the book that’s come out. Love matters more. And as we get kind of started here, I’d love for you to kind of maybe share some of your background because as I was kind of reading it, I felt a connection with your with your kind of spiritual background, your church background, and I know Rex will have some connections as well.

Yeah, sure. And it’s it’s a story of a spiritual Mutt of in many ways. So I grew up in a small town in Texas Southern Baptist, and my grandmother, though, was a kind of a traveling charismatic preacher. So I definitely had a charismatic, heavy influence as well as Southern Baptist, and then ended up going to a Presbyterian Church in high school by myself. I was drawn a little bit more to kind of the intellectual ism of Presbyterianism, you ended up going to Liberty University, and then from there to Westminster seminary, which is a Presbyterian leaning seminary, for sure. And then, you know, went to a few other areas was a pastor to nondenominational church where we had a bunch of us from different backgrounds, and currently a member of a Mennonite Church, actually, okay. Well, Mark has the Liberty connection here.

Yeah, I was gonna say I was I didn’t know about the Liberty connections. So we got some shared history there. I guess.

I grew up Southern Baptist. And actually, I so got my indev at a Southern Baptist seminary. And then I guess I went to the wrong kind of Presbyterian seminary for my PhD it was union, it’s a PC PC, let’s say, Yeah. Very, very different than I mean, I don’t regret it at all. It was it was a wonderful experience for me, but very different than my mtef. Experience. Yeah.

And what’s your would share with the transition to the Presbyterian Church, she’s saying in high school, you went there kind of on your own, drawn to more the intellectual side? That Yeah, how did that transition kind of happen? And maybe what did your family think when that was gonna? cabinet? Yeah,

I mean, you have to remember, it’s also in the context of a small Texas town. So everyone’s Christian, everyone’s kind of in the same general area direction. Yeah. So it wasn’t that much different, except for that emphasis again, on much more reading much more about outlining systematic theology, and how does God work? And how do we get into the nuances? And how do we address those questions and doubts and come up with some solid answers for all of that. And so that was kind of my transition. It’s just more of my personality, I think and how I how I thought about faith.

And how did you get the Texas accent drilled out of you? lots of practice. Yeah, lots of I grew up in New Mexico. And honestly, all of our all of our pastors in my whole childhood a useful experience were from Texas. And so I really thought that God spoke with the Texas accent. I just didn’t know any different. Till I learned there was a wider world out there.

Yeah, it’s very surprising to watch old home videos from when I was a kid. I’m like, Oh, my word. This is extreme.

It’d be kind of like a Texas accent reading the King James Version. So because even in in Indiana, he was growing up. I grew up in Indiana, it was more rural parts of Indiana, which is most of Indiana. But most people up there have Southern accents as well. And I’m like, How did this happen? We’re in the north. And

southern Indiana was like, ground ground zero for the KKK back in the 1920s. Yeah, sadly,

sadly, it really was Really? Wow. Yeah. And yeah, so we had I call it a country accent. It’s not quite a southern accent as a country accent. But yeah, most, most of the pastors I grew up with as well. And so I could kind of feel like maybe God just has an accent. Maybe God has an elicit Elizabethan accent, which is perfect. But with that, I think in your book, too, you kind of know your, your transition and maybe like you’re saying a little bit of personality in high school that also kind of drove you deeper into that field. Of being right height or getting that right theology above love. And, and then I think for a lot of the book too, and for a lot in the church now seem to be sent around or we can have a frame for it with that that classic Christian phrase speaking the truth in love, right? So why why do we often get that so wrong? I mean, we use it maybe wrongly maybe out of good intention, but it still seems that application, we’re maybe not quite grasping what that means to, to speak the truth and love? Yeah, I hear it. Right.

Right. I think there’s this abstract or maybe big picture view for that. And then there’s maybe more of an emotional, at least in it just in my observations. So at the big picture, you know, we have to recognize in some ways we come by it, honestly, because we are in a tradition that has emphasized thinking the right thoughts for the last 500 years. So the modern period in the West has been more and more of rationality and reason. And if we just put our thinking caps on, we can all agree, and that’s what’s going to lead to peace and prosperity is thinking the right thoughts. Of course, in academia, this started to really break down in the in the 40s, and 50s, in the aftermath of World War Two, where we thought we were headed to world peace, and yet we used our brains and technology just to kill more people. And so there was a pessimism there around that. But I think in pop culture, we still kind of have this idea that, hey, if we just got everyone to agree with me, because I happen to always have the right thoughts, then, you know, the world would be a better place, we’d be at peace, there’d be this utopia. So I think we come by it honestly, in this intellectual tradition. But I think for me personally, and I, the people I’ve interacted with, there’s also this fear of the unknown, and uncertainty and a need to feel secure, and a need to belong. And we know we belong, it’s easiest to know those markers if they are kind of these checkmarks of beliefs in our head. So what do you believe about? And that can be politically or religiously? What do you believe about these five topics occur? Great, I feel like you’re safe, I can be myself with you. And there we go. Now we belong, and we’re insiders. So I think both of those are worth exploring and seeing whether they are we sometimes just inherit them both the emotional posture or the social posture as well as this intellectual tradition? And we don’t question it. But I think it’s worth questioning is that the only way to be in the world. And I think there are some other ways and I think the Bible really doesn’t come out of that tradition as much as we wish it did. Yeah, and

one thing I encounter a lot in, I teach this class, it’s called Christian perspective, but it’s sort of a hodgepodge of philosophy, and sociology, and little theology, and all sorts of stuff that all of our seniors have to take before they graduate. And if done well, it’s a great class, it’s done poorly. It’s a horrible glass, but but one thing that I find animates a lot of my students is that they feel they cannot give up a concept of absolute truth. And you know, that that’s just non negotiable. And, of course, you know, there’s, there’s some cognitive dissonance there, because they do sort of understand that a lot of our truth statements are conditional. And so how do you? How do you somehow, you know, deal with those two conflicting sort of things? And I find that’s a real, real struggle for many students.

Yeah, I think it’s a struggle for a lot of people in the Christian tradition. Again, if if the content of our faith is beliefs in our heads, then God is in some ways equivalent to absolute truth. And so to to question, absolute truth is to question God in the same way that it’s to question the Bible is to question God and a lot of traditions as well. And so we do have to kind of dig deeper at some of those underlying assumptions and start to pry away maybe our confidence in the wrong things,

or have some humility, some intellectual humility, which is, you know, oftentimes hard to come

by, and that’s often the first step I’ll take is okay, that’s fine. We can believe in absolute truth. The real question is, do we have access to it?

Right, and I actually really love your phrase, like only God sees the elephant, because, you know, of course, I like everybody else will use that, you know, analogy. You know, that’s actually I think that’s gonna show up in probably next semester. We were already done with that so far this semester, but next semester, I think I’m gonna I’ll name check you though. Okay. Let everybody know that I’m that’s not original with me.

Yeah, that’s fine. And that’s in what Rex for our listeners, what Rex is highlighting is in the first chapter of your book, he kind of talked about that classic example of, you know, truth of the three blind men and I like how you first question like, hey, why is this community just letting blind men roam around and getting lost in a cave somewhere, but three blind men in there, they’re feeling Each part of the elephant ride and it’s that classic example of we just have access to, you know, maybe the truth that’s in front of us. But we do all kind of tell that story from the point of the narrator, right, from the point of having that information like, well, we obviously know it’s an elephant. And so it’s hard to, it’s hard to use that as a true example of our position because no one except God is in that position of knowing and, and I like what you said in the book, too. Like it’s not. It’s not getting written. This is why I think maybe a fear in the evangelical community is it’s not a getting rid of absolute truth, right? It’s not saying we have, there’s just nothing, there’s no truth. There’s no foundational claims for anything. But rather, it’s a recognition that we may not know absolute truth, you know, perfectly, and we may not have access to it. And so like I said, they’re just having humility, in our understanding of truth, knowing that God, God has truth under control, right, and we don’t have to, we don’t have to control it. But it’s also just recognizing, we do have a limitation in our, in our understanding of, of truth and, and our access to it.

Yeah. And then the corollary is that humility that Rex was talking about, I think that’s, that’s the key. And there’s a reason I started with that in the book is because I think everything flows from that humility, you have to pry our hands off of thinking that our opinion is the absolute truth. Before we can really allow love to take root in between that space.

So So When, when, for example, you hear someone say something like, you know, you know, love the sinner, but hate the sin, because I have to sort of hang on to that sort of thing. But yet I still, you know, love you, but I hate what you do. How does that sort of play out in this? You know, truth versus love kind of issue?

Yeah, I mean, I think the the question that most people have is, I think, a false dichotomy, that we have to give up our beliefs and convictions to love well. And I think that’s just not true. I think that’s actually we use as an excuse, because most of the time, our standing up for truth isn’t loving, to be honest, right. And so then we just think the problem is, these are always in intention. And so I just have to choose truth over love, when really, there’s a lot of nuance, and there’s a lot of skill, to having conviction, standing up for what we believe, and yet doing that in kind and compassionate and loving ways. And I think there’s just a lot of room for growth. And instead of doing that hard work, we just chalk it up to the user intention, I just have to tell the truth. And that’s where we pitted against each other. And truth telling becomes more important than loving. And we don’t recognize, I think that there’s a lot more to it. And it’s very practical. There’s some very practical things for how we can speak our opinion to people and do that in a loving way.

And so what are some of those things? I’m really curious, because I want to be that kind of person. But I often have another kind of person. So

yeah, I mean, I think there’s, first of all that humility, and patience. You know, in the book, I tie these two, interestingly, this phrase that Paul uses in Ephesians, chapter four, speak the truth in love. And but in that same chapter right before that, he uses the same phrase, do something in love. But it actually is bear with one another in love. And right before that, he tells us a little bit about what that means. And he uses these words like patience, and humility. And I think those are what we can be talking about. And then I break that out even more, not necessarily in the book, but just in my practice, to thinking about, okay, what does being patient mean, in the context of a relationship where I fundamentally disagree with you on political and religious matters? It means maybe that I have to respect that you’re an adult, and you may not change your mind in this conversation, and I have to make hard choices. Is my relationship going to be bigger than this fundamental disagreement? Or is it not going to be bigger than it? And for some, right, it’s not some you don’t need to have a deep relationship with people you disagree with, because you can’t have a relationship with everyone that’s just not practical. But there are close people, especially friends and family where we may say, no, it’s bigger than that. And now we have to, you know, wade into the deeper waters of how to untangle our own emotions, you know, have this phrase in the book too, that we can’t confuse discomfort with our conscience. Sometimes we’re just uncomfortable with something and we think that therefore, that’s a wrong thing for someone to do. So there’s this a lot more our egos are at play a lot our opinions about things our own situatedness and context, our own inherited ideas about whatever the thing may be. Race, politics, religion, culture. And we just have to ask ourselves, is it worth it in this relationship to wade into all that?

Do you think? sure that sort of the, you know, conservative Christian apologetics industry has not really helped us out much, you know, in actually, you know, learning those very important skills.

Yeah, I think for sure, I mean, in a lot of ways, you know, I was really, from a young age, I wanted to get a PhD in presuppositional apologetics, that was my life goal, from the time I was probably 13 years old, just like most 13 year olds, you know, I’m sitting there, exactly, I was gonna say this near cassette tapes by Greg bahnson, at 1030, at night in my room, or whatever it is. So that was my whole goal. And it’s I know that world well, and I think one of the things that saddens me, where I am now is to realize that they propped up these arguments that ended up shooting them in the foot. Right, like, like the idea of absolute truth, and making these all or nothing statements, and assuming that everyone’s just gonna be all in, but when they’re not, then they throw the baby out with a bottle of bathwater, and then they’re not in at all. And I think those are just unhelpful categories to make things black and white like that.

I found that, um, you know, some of the more popular contemporary apologists, and I’m trying to talk in a way that, you know, I don’t I know, I try not to mention the names here. But I found out that that, you know, there’s these strawman arguments that are set up, and then you knock down the straw man, and then you just go on to the next argument, but yet, at least folks that I know that have serious, you know, and legitimate questions about the Christian faith and all of this from mutations aren’t asking those questions that these apologists are shutting down, and then they move on and the site CASE CLOSED, and hope maybe they say, CASE CLOSED that might have actually,

you know, I know that works for some folks, but it leaves you know, in, in, in, in our contemporary society, especially anybody that’s, you know, educated at all, I don’t think that that works as well as it used to,

at all. I mean, I would argue it never really worked to be honest. Now, but it did, what I think it did is it gave people the sense of security and confidence and certainty that people were looking for. And again, it wasn’t ever about convincing people with the argument, it was about convincing people through confidence, and saying, Oh, I want to have that confidence in something. And now, people I think, are more willing to not know. And so now we put ourselves in a bind, you know, I tell him the book, there was a class I taught when I was a pastor called for skeptics only. And what I didn’t say in the book was that originally, that class was designed with a modern apologetics approach. So I inherited that class. And for me, that just didn’t work. And it was it felt really inauthentic. And so I changed the goals to be from trying to argue people out of their atheism, to letting them understand that, that that the circle is big enough for their questions and their doubts, and that God wasn’t going to strike them down if they didn’t agree with me and my positions on the Christian faith. And that tended to work much better. And by work, I just mean, they didn’t think Christians were a bunch of jerks. And that was really all I was hoping for.

Right? Yeah. And that is a good goal, I think, is the goal we need to bring back because it seems like with for me, that phrase, speaking the truth and love, often when we use it, we are we really downplay the love part. And, and, and we’re not. And we may actually not even love the person, we’re just trying to speak the truth and and trying to recapture that, like, hey, what does it look like to to love someone you disagree with? And and what does it look like to do that? Well, for me that I think there I also have maybe a follow up question where this would be, what role then does truth play in love? Like what role does truth and maybe knowledge play in

again, I think that’s important to recognize, too is that I the name of the book is called love matters more. Not only love matters. And it’s it’s because truth is important. And you see this in the Bible, which I was frankly surprised. But like in, in this list, and First Peter and other things we’re talking about these virtues that we’re trying to build knowledge and understanding are often in there. They’re just not the ultimate thing. They’re not the last thing in the list. Yeah. So I think it’s really important that we have our good understanding. Because just think, psychologically, and emotionally of what we learned in the last 100 years, I would say we’re in a better position now to love people well, just based on information that we’ve learned the truth about things and so I will use the example of parenting, you know? So sometimes how we love is about impact, not just intention. So some of us, you know, grew up in the 80s, I would say my mom loved me as best she could. But there were some things that I ate and drank that were not healthy for me. They were not, they were not loving things to be feeding of, you know, five year old drinking. I’m trying to think of what that was, was the what was the green soda? That wasn’t Mountain Dew? It was it was only in the 90s. Squirrel or yellow squirt, or to look it up. It’s just like, an ad saying and 90 thing. our listeners are probably sort of screaming. Yeah, the other one. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So you haven’t that and like eating powdered donuts, you know, every Saturday morning. So it was my mind being loving, it depends, are we talking about just intention or impact. And I would say love is this is this wisdom category in between those. You know, it’s not just intention, just because I want to love you and my hearts in the right place doesn’t mean my impact is going to be loving. So and that’s where knowledge really can play is when we learn things we can love better. But the goal has to be the love not just to know things better. Because when when, when truth is the guide, often love gets left behind, like what you’re saying. But when love is the guide, truth is a necessary part of that.

Yeah, and it seems so interesting for Christians to let love be the guide seems like a scary thing which it should be yesterday like that, that seems to be the point and the goal. But it’s it’s kind of a failure, afraid to then let you know. So

the ranch if you talk about the core value of our faith, which is really bizarre situation.

Right? And, and bringing these together, right, if you if you do have that maybe truth and knowledge that would help you to love better and, and allow love to lead. I mean, the way, way Jesus, you know, is the example of that, where he had the knowledge and the truth. And that allowed him to love better and allowed him to love those who were at the margins of the society, and especially the religious society. Actually, it was history, the knowledge that that was a grounding for his love for them, rather than you but to the religious leaders of his day, it looked like he was he was losing his way. And he was letting love lead rather than truth.

One thing that’s helped me I think, in this whole conversation is realizing that truth can take care of itself, just like God can take care of himself. And so neither God nor truth need me to like prop it up. And so if that’s true, then, you know, we can actually get down to what we’re supposed to be doing anyway. And that’s, you know, respecting people and loving people and wanting the best for people and working for the common good and things like that. Yeah, that’s well said, I would agree with that.

And in the book, one of the I think, one of the most interesting and maybe challenging chapters for some people is that idea of love changes truth. And you even recognize at the beginning, you’re like, I know this is gonna be scary. Like we’re not allowed to change truth is unchangeable. But with that, yeah. How do you how do you perceive that of love changing truth? And what is that?

Well, not to get too far into it. But I think it’s really important that we start with the understanding that truth is a slippery term that can mean different things. So of course, to say love changes, the truth is to be, you know, purposely provocative, but it’s really digging into the idea that truth is more than facts. So does love change facts? No. But as humans, we can’t help but always try to make meaning of facts. So we’re always putting the pieces together. And love definitely influences how we put the pieces together. And I think that’s really important is that we put the pieces together differently when love is our guide. And, you know, we can talk about some people talk about the package that we put it in, right. And so we would like to think that we can just get to the facts. The problem is As humans, we never just get to the facts. We’re always communicating the facts. We’re talking about the facts, we’re internalizing them, we’re connecting them with other facts in our head. So there’s always another element besides just the facts, ma’am, so to speak. And

right, some of the facts are accessible. At least they have been right I just raised

Yeah, so we did talk about meaning and and really what I mean is that love changes meaning. And I think that is true, what something means is different. I give this example of, you know my dad and the story of the shoes in the closet and the statement that he makes, and then as I have my own kids how that takes on new meaning. It takes on new depth it to even not even just in the tone, but just literally what he meant. Whenever he did that And when he says these words, it changes how I understand it as I get older. And I think that’s how love changes, meaning. And I think that’s really, it’s really key. And it comes back to the humility of recognizing that we’re not getting to the facts all the time. We have, like Rex says, like these holes in our understanding, and we have all this other stuff in between that is, in a lot of ways really great. We want to be able to make meaning or else we’d be kind of just robots. But we have to recognize there’s a downside to that as well.

Here, it seems like with, as you were kind of talking Jesus with a woman at the well, was kind of emerging, where it’s like Jesus actually knew the facts about her, but it’s still the meaning in the application. And the love didn’t change. I mean, he didn’t change the fact that she had had, you know, he’s I’ve actually you’ve had more than one. But the facts weren’t the point there.

You know, I don’t know facts have ever really changed anyone’s life. I mean, I actually haven’t thought of that before. But that just well may be true. I mean, love changes minds, not facts. Yeah, that’s a good point.

And, and yeah, and it’s great to see that, you know, obviously, we get that example with Jesus. And again, being Christians, it’s so hard for us to, to actually follow that example, it’s so easy for us to go back to just understanding, you know, maybe what we call it playing a quote unquote, plain reading of the text or a plain application of the text. And, and one thing in that chapter of the love changes truth that I think you do well is kind of highlighting the way Jesus even took the Old Testament and said, Hey, you have you’ve heard it was said, Now, I’m telling you this right, there’s a different application. And that application is, is driven by love, and it’s driven by wisdom more than it is by just the bare facts of the Old Testament.

Yeah. And you know, when we read the Bible, and you if you go through college, you know, Bible study classes, we talk about something called authorial intention, which is, what did the author originally mean by this? That the problem with that is, that’s only allowing for one way of thinking of meaning. And it is, by definition, disconnecting us from that world. The point is, what did it mean to the author? That’s different than what does it mean to me, and we get this intuitively, every Sunday, if you go to a church service, and they’re talking about how, you know, Paul, words is really irrelevant to us and our social media addictions and in our watching on our phones, and like Paul, in talking about phones, but get right get to these more ethically sticky things like divorce, or a women’s place in the church or, you know, LGBTQ like, now it gets to be a little dicey. But when we’re talking about cell phones, it seems to be no question. And so yeah, you know, we just have to be thoughtful about about some of that.

Right? I actually, I think about this every time I hear a pastor talking about the, you know, the Greek in the original Greek this, this means this and that. So Jesus meant this and that, and it’s like, well, I do believe, you know, in the inspiration of Scripture, but Jesus was speaking Aramaic. You’re going on all this thing. And that’s not even the language he was speaking, right. He originally said right words, like them. I try not to actually push that point.

It’s good to have Rex in the audience when you’re giving a sermon because, you know, he’s just gonna be he has a he just has posters with big markers.

But I, I’ve always been here before I before I started teaching, you know, I know what it’s like to just be a good Pew sitter and never sit there and, you know, send a letter to the pastor every week. Wrong. I hated that. And so I’m not going to put it good. Exactly.

That’s right. You learn you learn, you learn that matters more. That’s right. That’s right. And I think it was a couple months ago, maybe on your blog, Jared, you, you talked about the title. Love matters more. And you talked about how that begs the question. What does it matter more than? And so yeah, how would you you kind of answered it in a couple different ways in that? How, yeah, what does love matter more than I mean, we know that the punch line of it matters more than fighting to be right. But what else? What else does it

mean? At the end of the day, the older I get my conclusion is it within the Christian context of the Christian faith that loves matter matters more than everything? It really ladders more than anything, it colors everything that we do now. Yeah, I think love is a robust enough concept that it it morphs and it changes just like wisdom. You know, loving well is a wisdom concept in mind. So it’s not to say definitively, here’s the category, here’s the black and white. It’s just saying, This is that concept. That’s, it’s, it’s like the horizon. It’s the thing that draws us closer to it. But the closer we get to it, it still seems to be out there somewhere. And maybe the point is in the journey toward it, not necessarily and ever getting to it. And I think that for me is, what that is about is how do we change the conversation? How do we change the posture of our life, to show and demonstrate that love is something that really matters to us. I’ve seen in my history in the church, that love matters, I mean, that truth matters to us. That’s pretty obvious and pretty clear. What’s not as clear is that love matters to us and such that it met truth matters so much to us, that we’ve started calling truth telling love. That that’s is the content of love. And so we’ve started to overshadow any other aspect of love, other than telling you my opinion, regardless of my posture, my investment in your life, my tone, and my relationship with you.

Yeah, and that’s really good. Because we really haven’t used that classic example of, well, if someone was taking poison, and they’d want you to, you know, it’d be loving to tell them that it’s poison. But again, that story has all kinds of nuances, because you’re like, Well, how do we know it’s poison? Is it really? Like, do you think it’s poison, the person doesn’t think it’s poison, and then you go up and smack it out of their hands, you know, and they’re gonna be like, thank you for loving me. That, that, but that idea, but I do really appreciate what you’re saying there of trying to understand what that really looks like to say that love matters more than anything, right, then everything that, that if we look through, through again, the lens of Jesus and his actions and his interactions here on Earth, all of that driven by love,

not totally a theologically, you know, defensible position, I really believe that I really believe that.

Right? And that’s where and you know, in some people always kind of push back on that though, right? They’re like, well, we can’t talk about love too much.

Everything’s, everything’s a zero sum game. Now. I mean, we see that in our society, we see that in, you know, inter church and intra church relationships, and everything and love really gets, you know, lost in in that kind of worldview. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think we got to keep coming back to that, to that idea of love. And that’s why we appreciate about about the book, Jared. And I’m definitely be something we get a promo around campus, and through the podcast, Rex can promote in his class. For help all the students need Take, take a breath when we talk about love and truth, and that we can, we can focus on love and will be helpful, actually, yeah. And it’s not again, it’s not a giving up of truth. It’s not CIA. Again, the idea here is that kind of zero sum game, it’s like, if you talk about love than well, truth has to be out the door. No, it’s just letting truth. Letting truth guide all of our actions and our sorry, in letting love I am. I’m well trained and well trained. Letting love guide us. Because if we if we really do have the love that God wants us to have the love that Jesus had, we’re not going to have to worry about the truth in that sense, because the truth can take care of

itself. Big Boy, just like God. You know, I exactly understand that we can use it there. But I think the concepts true, it doesn’t need my help to prop it up.

Yeah, definitely. So. So with the book coming out, you got your podcast Bible for normal people. What else you got going on your life? What else keeping you busy. I

mean, I’ll be writing other books as well. But you know, I spent a lot of time I actually have a firm I work with family businesses. I work primarily with family businesses, and to be honest, just as much as my training and philosophy and biblical studies as a pastor influenced this book. So did the work I do with families because there is similar right? It’s about truth, the truth that maybe you’re not cut out to be in this role, or this position and your job and my love for you as a brother or as a father, or as a son and how do we navigate that? So it’s a it gets real practical, real fast, in that world that I kind of inhabit every day. Sorry, for family businesses, actual churches. I there’s a lot of combos around here and some of the mega churches. If that’s true, some of them actually don’t work that well. Anyways,

Maybe I can be a family business sometimes can be a family business. Well, Jared, thank you so much for for being on the show. And we are really excited to be able to promote this because it is such a topic that we need to continue to understand and and especially with you know and Jessup were in the evangelical community. And we keep we need to keep them tension with, hey, what is love and what does that really mean? And if we’re going to use that phrase, truth and love, let us those really know what the love part of that is and may love drive that rather than rather than the truth, and I think you do a really good job of highlighting that. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes these reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup.

If you’re interested in learning more about Jessup, please visit us at William Jessup is the premier fully accredited four year Christian University in the Sacramento area offering over 60 academic programs in undergraduate and graduate studies designed to see every student equipped and transformed into the leader they are called to be as you go Don’t forget to hit subscribe and share so you never miss an episode. Thanks for joining us for Jessup Think.

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