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Jessup Think
Jessup Think

Mark and Rex discuss the growing and vocal movement of ex-evangelicals and highlight key causes for this movement away from the evangelical label. They also discuss the postChristian leap that many make, especially some recent high profile figures within the evangelical community.


Welcome to Jessup think I’m your host, Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And today on the show, we’re going to be talking about, I think, a really important issue, an issue of people leaving the evangelical movement and leaving it publicly Yeah, leaving it publicly. And then and then a group that has left now identifying themselves as ex Benjamin tells, and kind of forming a community is saying, Hey, we were all part of something. And now we’re not right, and finding community in that. And so we really wanted because there’s this, this is a an issue that I think is really important. And there’s been recent, recent people kind of publicly leaving a faith leaving the church, I think it’s important for us to talk about it. So I really hope you enjoy the show. I hope you keep an open mind as we kind of walk through this and kind of look at this phenomenon that’s happening, and maybe what are some of the reasons and what are some of the reactions we can have? It’s an important conversation.

Alright, Rex, we are what I really love about maybe where this episode can go. Okay. Is and I have no idea actually. That’s true. I mean, you know, topically, well, I know, we’ve talked, we’ve we’ve talked about this, but but I think it’s just something for us to to really discuss and kind of explore I want to kind of take the next 30 ish minutes right to, to explore and really to exploring this kind of recent phenomenon, but not really and won’t will highlight that. Right. But kind of a recent phenomenon of, of people leaving the evangelical movement, right. And some have put terms to that, like the x Van jellicle movement, or even x Bs, right. Like, and, and there’s been a community that has formed, right, right. around that, like, and, and I think that that area is really interesting to me, right?

levels of levels, the fact that it actually is kind of a, what some people will call a hashtag community. It’s also really interesting. And yes, seeing the advent of a lot of those the whole Black Lives Matters. And you know, just you just name it.

Yeah. And kind of make use of social media, to connect groups of people, right, and to find community, right. And there’s been this kind of community forming of saying, Hey, we were in the evangelical movement, but now we’re not.

And that not means different things for different Yeah, yeah, that’s true, which makes it really interesting phenomena and also

there. And I think with that, there’s been kind of then kind of high profile people who’ve been voiced that right, and that adds another layer. And not, not all of those more recent ones have been necessarily just ex evangelical, some of have been been moving to post christian right, saying, Hey, I don’t think I can call myself a Christian anymore.

Some are atheists, some are agnostic, some are I don’t know what I am some right into what they feel are more progressive forms of Christianity, some sort of stay on the margins, right, and feel that they’re being prophetic on the margins. And so the sort of, I don’t know, xx fees still, you know, on the outer edges of the camp.

Right. Right. And I think that’s one thing that I’ve I do appreciate about, I think the community because I think there needs to be room for people saying, Hey, I think you’re getting this wrong. Right. Right. And I think that’s important. I mean, that’s, that’s kind of what the prophets did. And they weren’t always well liked for it. Right. Right. And so I’m always, I always want to be careful about any type of knee jerk reaction. Right.

Right. And, and as you mentioned before, this is a phenomena that that, you know, has actually a long history is just that we are sort of in a different phase of the phenomena. Now who right makes it really interesting and really interesting to talk about. There’s always been, well, not always, I guess, well, there’s always been folks that are like ex Catholic, but in the past, you know, 20 years or so there are folks that will refer to themselves as recovering Catholics as a right, you know, growing up Catholic is something you can recover from, right. I’m sure there two or three that are orthodox, but I don’t even really know what an ex orthodox would be done with it. Yeah, I really know that. That is a dad joke. I’m sure some folks around I’ll have to do some research on that. But right, um, as with the whole lot of things, and I remember, you know, growing up in, you know, very conservative iteration of our faith. Yeah, that we thought that a lot of these things that other folks had to deal with, we would be insulated from and we would never have to deal with it. But of course, that’s not true, right? It’s always going to come around and we’re dealing with the now and very publicly Right, very publicly because of the social media aspect of the movement,

one that you and that’s really interesting, because I would say like, even within our church, there were several people who say, I grew up Catholic. I walked away from faith. And now I’m, I’ve come back to this community, but I couldn’t. And I think maybe Yeah, that story could now change maybe in 20 years would be like, I grew up evangelical, I walked away from faith. And now I’m, you know, interestingly, that has happened. Right. It definitely has helped. Right. And, and so I guess, kind of with this, I’d love to kind of explore your thoughts and kind of interject my thoughts on on why maybe this movement is is happening, and especially now maybe why it is as vocal maybe now? As it has. So what are some maybe initial thoughts of? Well,

I mean, there’s some obvious and literal elephants in the room with this is true, and you can’t talk about this without that. Right. But I guess an easy one, first would be the kind of the, the social media aspect of this, you know, and and which is LinkedIn to sort of, you know, Christian celebrity, a lot of these people, right, you know, Josh Harris and Marty Sampson, and some of these folks, you know, that have recently, I don’t know, come out or come away. It’s been very public, right? It’s done on Instagram. Yeah. And they have 1000s of followers, and they consider themselves or other people consider them to be influencers. Right. And so this thing’s playing out in a in a way that, you know, there’s always been people that have left by evangelicalism or any right type of Christianity, that right, totally, but but it’s playing out in a different way now.

Yeah, I didn’t know not quite, you know, front page news way to write just an average on average guy in his community is like, I’m not going to church anymore. I’m going to watch football pretty much and right. But yeah, your time doesn’t pick that up and who exactly is no longer going?

And what’s really interesting about this is that some folks, I mean, you know, Josh Harris, particularly because he’s associated with a, you know, a very explicitly Christian phenomenon, right, in a very specific, you know, iteration of the faith, you know, with his true love weight stuff, right. Yeah. And the character culture, he has all of that. Yeah. And so, so there is some celebrity with that. And I could go on forever. Almost going to, but yeah, and, you know, a different Samson. He’s, he’s a Hillsong. Guy. Right, you know, and honestly, though, I mean, a lot of us would have never heard of Marty Samson. Literally. Yeah. If he hadn’t have done this publicly, and then suddenly, because he does, right. You know, and, you know, I think a lot of, you know, media sometimes feeds on itself. And it’s just sort of the, I mean, it’s occupational hazard of the whole thing. And so, right. So it gets picked up in ways that it wouldn’t before. Mm hmm. And you know, whether you’re an influencer or not now you are right, right, you know, yeah. And that’s an interesting phenomenon. Yeah. And that’s a new thing.

Yeah, actually, and, and that kind of seems to highlight, it seems like I think one of the reasons and it does seem to be there’s maybe, distinctions between what was happening with Joshua Harris, and then what was happening with Marty Sampson, right, we’ll kind of pick up on those distinctions. Right, but I think maybe too, like, with with Joshua Harris, I think one of the reasons that they are that they are being like a he is being vocal was because he’s using that celebrity to say, hey, these are things I disagree with, right? And so because of these things, I don’t think I can call myself a Christian anymore. And so in some ways, Joshua’s represents kind of even a different class than ex evangelicals. Right? It’s kind of this movement to post Christian. I can’t use that label anymore. Right. Right. And

it’s very interesting, at least on his initial long post, you know, by any definition of Christian that I am familiar with, I can consider myself a Christian. And, you know, obviously, there are a lot of other definitions of Christian that one could use, right, but you do grow up in a subculture that there is one and then you find yourself not agreeing with it anymore, for whatever reason, then I guess your options are limited. You know, but he’s not stepping away quietly. Yeah. And he does have a celebrity platform. Right. And it’s being used. Now, interestingly enough for further celebrity. Right. Yeah. And you have to be careful about noticing the phenomenon here and how it plays out and then you know, wanting to you know, honor person, right reasons for Yeah, you know, I’m even with him. This cannot be an easy thing to do.

No, not at all. And I do think we have to Be really careful in our reactions to people. Right? That it doesn’t doesn’t do anybody any good. I don’t know if that’s good English that I just use. It’s enough. It’s good enough. That’s right. I like that. But it really doesn’t. If If people will then voice these, and they’re just hammered right away, or they’re, you know, because they’re not in many ways that kind of reinforces because you were spamming people respond to it. Right. And then you have articles posted on other forums that will write to that. And we know some of those too. Right. Right.

Interesting enough, if you know, with Marty Samson’s case, you know, he since walked back some of the stuff, the reaction? Yeah. And and I guess, in some ways, I’m glad for the walking back. Because, you know, he’s, and that’s the second thing we can talk about. He’s still troubled with a lot of things that a lot of these folks are troubled about, and the common thread there, right. But in walking back, I’m, I wonder sometimes if if he’s walking back, because the criticism and not walking back because he actually is having second thoughts about his second thoughts. You know, what I mean? Right, right. And and yeah, public environment like this. Yeah. How do you find the space to be able to actually really deal privately with some stuff that can only really be dealt with privately when you’re living it out? publicly? Yeah. It’s an issue.

Yeah, it really is in it. And I think it is good to keep that in mind. Right? Every everyone who who kind of voices that and and everyone who is still within the evangelical community? Or Torres, we’re all people, right? It’s not just an Instagram post or a Facebook person. And there’s so much more going on. It does seem to me when you kind of see those and from kind of stories, even beyond, those are kind of more of the more recent rise. But But beyond that, there there does seem to be kind of specific issues. Right, that that that are mostly like driving people to say, Hey, I

don’t think I identify as an evangelical anymore, right, to kind of move out of that. And then if evangelical is the only type of Christian, real Christian, then it’s not a big leap to say I don’t identify as a Christian.

Right. And that, that is really fascinating to me. And I’ve seen friends do that. Right. Right. Right. And I think it’s important then for the evangelical community to, to, to recognize into to analyze, maybe how we are presenting certain things, and how we we often do like to present ourselves with this is the way right, this is the way and and and I think we have to we have to be able to talk about that. And and it seems like these kind of specific issues are ones that are that are known to us. Right. It’s a constellation of issues here. So

I’m have been around some of them are exacerbated by current cultural climate and political climate. And rightist is, yeah, and that’s, that’s, you know, adding an extra thing to some of these issues that have been around for a little while. What do you think a couple of those issues? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I really think those issues when you when you look at them, I mean, one of the main issues would be human sexuality, right? And how they do things. Yeah, and how the evangelical community approaches the LGBTQ community. And that was really, I think, Joshua Harris, you know, that was one of his enemies, like, Hey, I’m sorry, for the damage I’ve done with with that kiss dating Goodbye, and the party he played, but he attached it into that kind of treatment of the LGBTQ community. So I think that’s a big one, when you read a lot from the ex angelical movement, it’s really voicing a lot of a lot of hurt in that area. A lot of and I think that, that we have to be able to talk about that. Right? We do. And we have to.

And, you know, it is obviously a very sensitive and complicated issue. And, you know, I just remember, you know, talking to some folks that had, you know, not been in church for a while, and then once they find out, I’m an evangelical Christian, and I’m not making this up, oh, you’re the folks that hate gays. Right. And it’s like, Whoa, that’s the very first thing you think. Yeah. So that has, that’s what you think we are, then. Then we need a conversation. Right? Right. And we somehow need to be able to talk about this in a way that we’re not just known for that. Right? There’s a pushback with that. It’s like, you know, if you’re right, and everybody else is wrong, and you’re just capitulate in the culture then you’re not really you know, right, right. But um,

but yeah, but those those have been come kind of, they become kind of these identity markers. And they’ve kind of superseded other identity markers, right, like, right and And those seem to be that sticking points. And so human sexuality, and then even like, bigger gender role issues within the medical community have have some feeling is very patriarchal and a focus there and understanding gender roles. And so and that distinction. And then kind of that blend of conservative politics and evangelicals and One prominent xv has said, I mean, and I quote, x evangelical is inherently a political position. Yeah.

You know, which, which could cause people to just cavalierly dismiss the whole movement? Because Oh, well, it’s just right. Yeah, it’s just X, Y, or Z. Right? It’s just politics, actually, you know, trying to think of it, what drives that too. And there’s some, there’s, there’s a lot of things that drive that. Yeah. And they’re complicated things to talk about. And I know that, you know, if polls have remained steady, that about 80% of white evangelicals are supporting the current administration. And if you have a certain amount of people that feel that some of the things in the current administration are not Christian. Yeah. But yet, they’re identified as the Christian position. Right. And, you know, you dis identify, or you describe this construct that yeah, that that is a phenomenon. And it’s, for better for worse. For richer for poor, it’s an increasing phenomenon. Right. And millennials?

Yeah, point. And that, and that seems to be maybe probably why it the issue, even though it’s been around forever, people kind of leave in the evangelical movement, and people leave in the Catholic Church, you know, like, it’s right. It’s always happened. But it does seem to be maybe it is at its loudest point, because there is such a cultural moment, a cultural moment. And, and the Pluto aspect. And so, again, got to be able to talk about that. And it kind of made me think of when you look at kind of like, the early fundamentalist movement. And as it was a reaction to what was happening within modernity, kind of what would be called the liberal church kind of different than conservative liberal politically, like that term

criticism, the whole of Darwinism, the public rise, kind of first round of all, yeah.

And fundamentalists said, Hey, we got to come back to these fundamentals, which I think in theory is is a great move, because I kind of like I did my dissertation on creedal theology, right, I think there are these these fundamentals. But then it seems like in that moment, they also tacked on some fundamentals that were like, yeah, you have to view eschatology in a certain way.

I think I’ve mentioned this in another podcast. Yeah. It’s it is an interesting phenomenon. Um, when I was teaching apologetics and evangelism freshmen section, which I did for years here, one thing I would do you know, about halfway through the semester, it’s like, so this is on apologetics and evangelism. So if we’re going to go out and share Jesus Christ is somebody what are the like, the core things they need to believe to be a Christian? Yeah, let me get out a whiteboard marker. And let’s, let’s put them down. Yeah. And what’s fascinating is that after you know, that list gets longer and longer and longer and longer. And then I step back, and it’s like, Whoa, that list is like, 35 things long. Mm hmm. And you mean, I have to agree with all of that, or I’m not a Christian. Yeah. And, and, of course, you know, it’s, it’s, the conversation is deeper and broader than that,

right? Yeah. And it’s really interesting, because then you’re like, Oh, wait, but the apostles creed is like, eight articles long or 12? Or, you know, and it’s looking at the core. But I think one thing too with me with the, the fundamentalist movement, the early fundamentalist movement, is this idea of, of aligning, saying, our view on this is the only way to look at it. And if you’re not, you’re not Christian, and then Well, it’s interesting kind of leads people to go Whoa, film, not that, then I’m not a Christian either. And this just this tends to,

you know, flow into the conversation about Christianity and culture, and Christianity and subculture because during the fundamentalist modernist controversy, as As you know, there are different ways you can look at that different lenses, you can look to what was happening there. One would be the theological lens, and there were some legitimate theological issues there. Right. But what’s fascinating is that a lot of people actually didn’t look through that through necessarily a theological lens. They look through a cultural lens. Yeah. And and, you know, it’s it’s interesting that, like, the scopes trial ends up being the the, you know, primary marker for the fundamentalist, modernist controversy. That was not a trial about the Bible or theology. They entered into it, but it was about something else, and a lot of people interpreted it as a small town America versus urban America and Ryan, the South versus the North, right had all these wider cultural ramifications. Yeah. And and I think there are some of those wider cultural ramifications in the XV movement as well.

Yeah. Yeah.

And yeah, and I think one of the reasons why I kind of wanted to talk about this as because point it is kind of so prevalent and people are, are being more vocal about it. And you could, you could think to like, if you’re a part of a movement, and a bunch of people are jumping off the Chevy, like, Hey, what’s going on? Right ship? Yeah. And and I think it’s important for us to talk and also talk. What are some things leading up to that? And right, if there’s Okay, we were seeing some specific issues. And like you said, one thing, Marty Sampson said in his initial post was like, Hey, we’re not talking about these things. And I think that’s helpful to be like, and I know that that’s not the complete story. Right? Because it doesn’t mean, it means the community he’s in exactly.

evangelical communities that are talking that are right.

And I think that that’s the important part, right? Is is the evangelical community engaging in the conversation rather than separating from the conversation? And that needs to happen? And yeah, and one thing we, you know, try to do here at willing justice University is provide an environment. And this is not just PR, we actually,

well, we will send you an admission packet if you want to, and by the way, have you contributed to the fund X, Y, or Z? Yeah, exactly. Anyway, we do have places that are deliberately built into our curriculum that are supposed to, you know, be able to talk about these things and talk about these things. And some of the exact same things, right, xx fees, are concerned with biggie. Yeah, those issues are also issues of many, many of our students here just said, yes, it really right. And so right, we want a place where we can talk about this and have honest conversations with integrity. Yeah. You know, not avoid the issue, not set up straw man. Right. But in an environment of faith, because if you don’t do that, like said, Those questions are going to be asked, and they’re going to be asking other environments, we’re going to be answered. And they’re going to be answered in other environments. And yeah, and, and the whole full range of ways of dealing with that are not going to be explored and, and ways of remaining, you know, convinced and convicted Christian, even if one disagrees with some of the things that certain iterations of Christianity hold as, right core culturally, particularly, right? doesn’t mean you have to necessarily sell the ranch. But if you feel you have no choice, and you sell the ranch, yeah. And you’re already an XP, right. And towards your community. Yeah, with that, it’s so it’s a hard thing. It’s hard to if you’ve grown up in the church, and then the church gets identified with a certain political position, or certain economic position or certain cultural position, and that’s not your position. Yeah. And sincerely, it’s not just, you know, because, you know, out there in the world, it’s not their position, and I want to be accepted by everybody. There’s a lot of folks that just, you know, these are real questions. Yeah. Then you know, if you feel you have no choice, then you’re gone. Yeah. You know, and that’s a hard thing. It’s just a hard thing. It really is.

And that’s when you when you read from some of the writings of of x evangelical movement, it does seem to be one of the reasons why they’re trying to create this community is is it can be really isolating to leave a community you’ve grown up in exactly and so I’ve kind of formed this and I think that that we could do that we could just do a better job when the evangelical community to be in conversation and to be talking with and saying hey, I hear and maybe we can’t come to an agreement on that we’re gonna stay in the same tribe right? But we can be talking about it and it’s not right not someone who has just been shut out and and that’s with with kind of and I thought the Marty Sampson thing was really interesting, right sir Hill song you know, songwriter row oceans right? You get pride Tear Tear up right now listening to it, I can see it I can see it Rex and he had this any kind of just put out some questions, right. Like he put out some questions. And then it was kind of this immediate kind of backlash, and I was actually really impressed by William Lane Craig. So as Christian apologist he might be one of the smartest Christians on the planet. I don’t know. I think he’s a robot too. I’ve ever met him and I’m like, taking over the world. He just has a vast amount of knowledge is amazing. But I really love to actually on his his podcast, he kind of talked about it. There are other podcasts. There are I don’t You know, obviously we’re in that top all year, there are other podcasts. But he kind of spoke to the evangelical community and said, Hey, now’s not the time to condemn Marty Sampson, now’s the time to, to be in relationship with him right to be like, hey, okay, let’s talk about those things. Let’s talk about like, when, and I think this is part of that idea of when you have questions when you have doubts. The evangelical community hasn’t always been the greatest at being able to walk someone through what those doubts so we just we have tended often to circle the wagons and just, it’s really interesting. We, you know,

I guess the Amish have this. And it’s more complicated in the caricature of the Amish. But yeah, their whole shunning thing, right. And, and, you know, with the LDS church, too, when you leave the LDS church, there’s just huge ramifications with your eye, but we sort of do the same thing. You know, it’s like, I don’t know, are we gonna stop singing oceans? Maybe that’s a good thing. I don’t know, I still, you know, I, it’s, I do remember that, you know, people who sing a lot of gunk or stuff. And suddenly, Ganga disappears. Yeah. And those were great songs. Right. Right, you know, a written with integrity when they were written and still spam, but we can’t sing them anymore. Right. Because of that, which is a really interesting place to be we just, yeah, you know, it’s like, yeah, you just airbrush people out of the picture,

right. And I think that’s really unfortunate. And, and would need to be able to be in community and be able to talk and walk through doubts and especially when you know, and not and we have students right come to us all the time and they might bring up an issue. And, and think, okay, if there’s one way that the church views it or movement views it and I don’t view it that way than um, I must be out right, I must be out and, and there’s the issues are talked about, but even like, issues of hell and what hell was I mean, a lot of students are like, I’m trying to in like, in a lot of times when they say hell, they have Dante’s Inferno in mind, because that’s kind of magician, it’s like, well, hey, let’s talk about that. Let’s explore what, biblically has said, and, and we don’t have to be like, because I don’t affirm kind of medieval version of hell, then I’m not a Christian anymore, that that, for me, kind of speaks to that. And I think I think Ganga is a good name to bring up there. And with the liturgist podcast well, but that move from x evangelical, through like her within the Evangelical Church hurt within kind of celebrity within the Evangelical Church. But that move, I think, does kind of often open itself up to that transition to post Christian like, if that is identified. And and I think a lot of it is, from a lack of being able to be in conversation. I think one of the writers within this kind of whole question that I think has done a good job with this is Rachel held Evans Ryan, and it is sad that she had passed away. But I but I always appreciated the the spirit with which she said, Hey, like, I was raised in this I, but I’m questioning these things. And and she moved to not a post christian right, but she moved to a more progressive Christian movement. She did not have the family, though. Yeah, she didn’t. And and she was able to, I think, help a lot of people walk through questions. And and I think that that, in many ways, could kind of set an example for us. Like, when people are having doubts and questions. You know, do we shun them? Do we just write them off? Like, oh, Marty tweeted this? Or, you know, put this on Instagram? See you later, Marty? Or do we enter into that dialogue?

And honestly, you know, on on Twitter, and even on Instagram, there’s really not much dialogue? Because some of these Yeah, these are these are major deep, important questions, right, that can’t be resolved. And yeah, you know, 23 words or something, they just can’t. Yeah, and they take the conversation, and they take a lot of give and take, and they take time. And you know, we live in a culture. And this is interesting. I think this this kind of feeds back into the celebrity thing. You know, Andy Warhol saying we’re all famous for 15 minutes. Well, what what if, you know, I mean, you know, I guess I need to deconstruct while I still have my 15 minutes, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, maybe that’ll extend it to 30 minutes. Right. You know, and I don’t want to be cynical about this. It’s a different ballgame. Yeah.

And it adds it adds a different layer to does when it is and, and that’s too I mean with with William Lane, Craig’s response to On his progress to Tamara Samson, he said, Hey, Marty, I would love to walk with you through some of these questions. Right. And that is, that’s more than a tweet. That’s more than and that’s, and that’s, that’s where I really see maybe the role that we can play that people can play within the evangelical movement is when when students are having doubts when we ourselves have doubts, like, okay, let’s have the conversation in order to have the conversation and really with integrity and be able to address the issue that students and other folks because, you know, it is a I mean, the statistics are not good right now, right?

They just really right? And I remember that, from a sociological standpoint, and one reason why mainline Protestants kind of, you know, bled to death in 1960s, but evangelical and fundamentalist were able to keep their young that was actually the term right to socialize them more to the church. And that’s kind of true. I Right. Yeah. When I was in high school, you know, we had this humanities class saying and, and our class was taught by interesting enough, an ex Catholic monk who left the faith and was now an agnostic and married an ex nun anyway, for somehow that qualified him to teach our class. Right, right. What he did ask this experience happened, right, and as a private school, so they could it wasn’t a Christian school, it was a college prep school, you could talk about religion, right? And so he asked us a question. It’s like, you know, so how many guys go to church now will have the classrooms their hand because you know, our parents make us, right? And then he said, Well, how you know, as soon as you are away from home, or in college, or whatever, am I gonna see what church and I was the only one in the class, there was my hand, not because I’m Mr. Light, pious, good. I was telling the truth, because I was the only one that actually went to an evangelical church. Yeah, the interesting thing is, I know some of my former classmates in there, they’re, you know, that many of them are have already are evangelical Christians now, but that was because of life experiences later, yeah, later, but it’s like, yeah, I’m socialized into it. I like my youth group, we have a great, you know, right. And, you know, you know, right. Um, and so we were able to, to, to hold on to our folks, at least in greater percentages, but that has changed now. And even the nomination that I grew up, and that was really proud of holding on to their folks. It’s like 50% are leaving. Once they leave that youth group, yeah, they’re never darken the doors of a Christian church again, right. And these are folks that grew up the church. These are like, you know, your friends, kids from school that just come for the girls or whatever. Right. And that’s a new phenomenon. Yeah. And there are various reactions to it. You know, we can I don’t know, isolate the more right, you know, or or something. I guess that’s one. Yeah. But we could talk about these things, honestly, might be another with Marty Samson. Right. It’s like when I read that post it almost I mean, he says nobody talks about themselves, they would actually people are talking about this, I just really feel bad that nobody in your circle, right is talking about them. Right. And that’s the sad thing.

Yeah. And that’s maybe what I would encourage encourage the the evangelical community there that we would identify as being a part of, to, to be open to having those conversations to be to be even more active on looking like and not having the conversation to win the conversation. Right, right now having the conversation to even keep someone right, but having the conversation. And and then also, if you’ve been a part of the evangelical community, and you’ve gotten to a point where you’re like, man, I don’t I don’t think I can identify with this tribe anymore. And I think I would also encourage you to, to not just leave, but to be like, Hey, can we talk about this? I mean, that’s, that’s one, I think I do find it fascinating about the ex Ben jellicle movement, especially kind of the hashtag movement. And all that is, is they still want to talk about it, right? Hey, let’s talk about this. And there and in a lot of ways they’ve been ignored. So they have to be even louder, and they have to. And I think it’s, it’s time to say, Okay, let’s talk about this. And let’s really, let’s really get to the root of why right,

not just talk about how we can fix this phenomenon, right. Talk about the things that have led to this fun. Yeah, and that yeah, those are two different questions.

Yeah. And definitely want to know, want to stress the, the, the move from maybe x men don’t go to post Christian. And that’s, that’s where my heartbreaks is in that post Christian because it’s like, Well, okay, let’s really talk about that.

And there’s actually a number of stopping places you could stop at if somebody had told you before you hit post Christian. Right. Yeah. But if you don’t know that, then you don’t know that.

So true. Right. I think the conversation will continue. Yeah. Yeah, very important. Important to keep that line of communication open. Thanks. Thanks for thanks for chatting with me on this. Sure. It’s important. Good man the studio. Thank you for listening to Jessup. Think Be sure to follow us on Twitter at Jessup think we would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you have. Our aim is to provide a framework for further flexion and deeper exploration of these important topics. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes. These reviews help the podcast reach new listeners. Until next time, I’m Mark Moore and this is Jessup Think.

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